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Game Twenty Eight Raptors at Nets Tuesday December 14th 7:30 pm on SN

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  • Dvdvideo wrote: View Post

    Ha, went back and read this after my post......I can't agree more.
    That bench lineup was: Scottie, Yuta, Svi, Champagnie & Flynn.... Scottie + 4 shooters (and I use that term liberally). We had Yuta and Svi initiating the offense from above the break with Scottie watching from the dunker's spot. And they got owned by Nets rookies on the other end.

    That said, it was really a collective bag of problems last night:

    1) Overhelping on Durant, while at the same time trying to press-up on non-shooters like Duke and Clayton, resulting in dunks and layups in the first half.
    2) Selfish ISO ball for almost all of the night (it almost worked, though)
    3) Poor rebounding and not boxing out (some of that was being out of position on long rebounds due to overhelping)
    4) The aforementioned bench lineup (especially missing a ton of wide open 3s)
    5) Bad decisions by Fred in the closing minutes (he's not Lowry)

    I think it came down to under-estimating the Nets decimated roster and the Raps thinking they could get away playing selfish, un-focused ball and still get the win. They almost pulled it out, but this team obviously isn't talented enough to underestimate anybody.

    On the 4th quarter game-tying basket by Mills, the Nets still passed the ball around to get the best shot. Think about it: Brooklyn has Kevin Durant... the best 1-on-1 scorer of the last decade and they still trusted scrubs and rookies to make the right decision and find the open man. We have FVV and Siakam and we feel we need to go ISO? What's up with that?

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    • golden wrote: View Post

      That bench lineup was: Scottie, Yuta, Svi, Champagnie & Flynn.... Scottie + 4 shooters (and I use that term liberally). We had Yuta and Svi initiating the offense from above the break with Scottie watching from the dunker's spot. And they got owned by Nets rookies on the other end.

      That said, it was really a collective bag of problems last night:

      1) Overhelping on Durant, while at the same time trying to press-up on non-shooters like Duke and Clayton, resulting in dunks and layups in the first half.
      2) Selfish ISO ball for almost all of the night (it almost worked, though)
      3) Poor rebounding and not boxing out (some of that was being out of position on long rebounds due to overhelping)
      4) The aforementioned bench lineup (especially missing a ton of wide open 3s)
      5) Bad decisions by Fred in the closing minutes (he's not Lowry)

      I think it came down to under-estimating the Nets decimated roster and the Raps thinking they could get away playing selfish, un-focused ball and still get the win. They almost pulled it out, but this team obviously isn't talented enough to underestimate anybody.

      On the 4th quarter game-tying basket by Mills, the Nets still passed the ball around to get the best shot. Think about it: Brooklyn has Kevin Durant... the best 1-on-1 scorer of the last decade and they still trusted scrubs and rookies to make the right decision and find the open man. We have FVV and Siakam and we feel we need to go ISO? What's up with that?
      I don't know that selfish basketball was the issue, for most of the night anyway. We had our 4th most assists of the year last night. Even scaling down for the extra 5 minutes it would be a top 10 assist game for the year.

      The rebounding was awful. The bench was a complete disaster (including that really odd Barnes bench that ignored Barnes). Crunch time offence devolving into iso, completely unacceptable given how effective actions with two of Fred, Pascal, Scottie should be pretty easy to leverage. Nick needs to get his ass in gear on the late game offence. Run a set, man. Oh, yeah, the defence especially in the first half just losing guys right at the rim on simple pick and rolls, really weird reversal of our usual defensive issues. Weird game.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • golden wrote: View Post
        Huge silver lining was how Scottie went "eff this" when we were behind and took those step-back 3's to get us back into the game. And he's not even a shooter. That's just a natural winner's instinct that you can't teach.
        And he did it over KD the goat who has perfected that shot himself. SB also had the pleasure of being guarded by KD quite a bit during the game. That is respect for a rookie not quite 30 games in his career.

        I like Fred but mystified why he didn't give SB the ball at least once during the frantic closes ... it would have been at least a "development" move while Scottie was having such a good game.

        Comment


        • After taking a minute to digest that crazy thing, ask yourself this. Would you rather have had a win last night or have Scottie make the progress of taking the last shot? Sure, there were only three seconds left but "old" Scottie would have passed that ball for someone else to take a shot. This year isn't about winning at any cost (despite my bet on Raptors beating the wins over). I'll take Scottie making the choice to take the last shot. And that doesn't make it a moral victory. That's when you do everything you usually do and lose. There was something new this game. That's progress. That's the process. Didn't someone once say something about trusting the process?

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          • And, in honour of that process victory, I feel that it is only right (not really) for me to start the next (completely in jest) game thread, So here it is
            Game Number Something.
            Somewhere in the Multiverse.
            Raps at Bulls.
            Or, Bulls at Raps.
            Or, Raps and Bulls somewhere.
            Actual footage below



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            • Bendit wrote: View Post

              And he did it over KD the goat who has perfected that shot himself. SB also had the pleasure of being guarded by KD quite a bit during the game. That is respect for a rookie not quite 30 games in his career.

              I like Fred but mystified why he didn't give SB the ball at least once during the frantic closes ... it would have been at least a "development" move while Scottie was having such a good game.
              Scottie's in-season development has been something else for like you said <30 games. I can't wait to see what he looks like at 60 games and what he looks like in the seasons to come. So happy with this pick.

              All about putting the right pieces around him now.

              Comment


              • Dvdvideo wrote: View Post
                What a crazy game.

                I hate when everyone decides the game is really won or lost based on the 4th quarter and ot on one or 2 plays. They play 4 quarters, and every single play defensively and offensively matters.

                This game was lost in the first half when the raps for some reason showed up looking slow and lazy. Where was the will to win in the first half before we were buried?

                I think I jinxed scottie, since as good as he has been lately, he kept forgetting to box out and or turn his head defensively. Boucher decided why bother defending the rim in the first half, but let's go after everything in the second? And gtj going for steal after steal leaving others to cover?

                Too bad about the loss, it was still very close.
                But the game was decided on a handful of plays. Yes, the bench was bad in the first half but the Raps were up 10 going into the 4th quarter and up 3, with the ball, and under a minute to play looking to close it out. The decisions and plays in those last 50 seconds (on both ends) led to OT.

                As for Barnes, he was often left under the basket with 2 or even 3 Nets. Not sure how he is supposed to box out in those scenarios. He lost a couple he should have had but the rebounding woes were largely as a result of the defenders being hopelessly out of position to rebound.

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                • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                  Scottie's in-season development has been something else for like you said <30 games. I can't wait to see what he looks like at 60 games and what he looks like in the seasons to come. So happy with this pick.

                  All about putting the right pieces around him now.
                  I am extremely impressed with how rapidly he is improving game by game. It seems historical. He went from being a player who had a lot of question marks offensively and experts saying he will need years of work to being a consistent mid range shooter right out of the gate and has become a consistent 3 point shooter in 30 games. Within those 30 games he has shown flashes of stepback jumpers and pull up 3s as well.

                  Comment


                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                    That's pretty much it. Standard end of game play with the game on the line is to go one on one with a defender in an isolation. You don't move the ball to try and get a good shot because the defense is set and more things can go wrong when more people are involved, and we don't have a Dirk and Jason Terry sharp shooting duo to run a pick n' roll play at the end.

                    If it was another iso for Siakam like all of last year and he dribbled the ball of his feet again then we'd be crapping on him instead of FVV. Hopefully this is a learning experience for Fred as well. First year he's taking this role on, and to his credit he's been pretty clutch at the end of games, but he played 47 minutes. Gotta know your own limitations.
                    Yes I agree that one of VanVleet’s strength is him being clutch and how he thrives in the 4th quarter. I have acknowledged that positive part of his game in this forum.

                    But last night, there were three possessions that he could have passed the ball 1 out of 3 to his other teammates. But he did not and opted to be the hero which he failed three times.


                    #TradeVanVleet

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                    • Man.. what a tough loss. That was a great opportunity for this team. Could have etched a win against a tough opponent who is railing due to injury/covid. And could have gotten to .500.. but nope. The bench was awful again.

                      So all the positive vibes they had coming out of the game against Brooklyn feel wiped out. Boucher got his minutes, but he made some really dumb plays. Just watching the replays of him flying by Mills for that game tying 3 makes me chuckle. Mills didn't even blink an eye. Just a quick head bob fake, and Chris fell for it. Just stand in front, and make it difficult. They had to take a 3.. it was their only play!

                      Malachi was just so bad. That wedgie 3 was hilarious. Wish we had Banton for the bench, but they just gave the game away. Champagnie had 4 wide open corner 3's that he missed.. the last one was a terrible air ball. Yuta had some good defensive plays but was absent on offense.

                      I didn't mind the 3 by Freddie when we were up by 3. That would have been game over if he made it. Gave us enough time to take the final shot if Brooklyn scored (which we did - I believe we had like 9 seconds). And he was pretty hot at that point, despite being tired. I also didn't mind the no timeout by Nurse. We were going to call an ISO play anyway. But Fred's shot was garbage. I wish they ran just 1 screen to get him an easy look. How hard is it for Scottie, or Pascal to just set something to help.

                      Scottie was awesome. I really wish he got that last shot to go in.. not just for the win, but to cement his legacy lol. The kid is awesome. Have to capitalize while he's on a rookie contract though. Because he's going to be a max player up until he retires IMO.

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                      • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                        That's pretty much it. Standard end of game play with the game on the line is to go one on one with a defender in an isolation. You don't move the ball to try and get a good shot because the defense is set and more things can go wrong when more people are involved, and we don't have a Dirk and Jason Terry sharp shooting duo to run a pick n' roll play at the end.

                        If it was another iso for Siakam like all of last year and he dribbled the ball of his feet again then we'd be crapping on him instead of FVV. Hopefully this is a learning experience for Fred as well. First year he's taking this role on, and to his credit he's been pretty clutch at the end of games, but he played 47 minutes. Gotta know your own limitations.
                        This misses the point. Fred is a very good shooter and is a clutch shooter. If we're talking about a catch and shoot 3 for the tie or the win at the buzzer, no other guy I'd want taking it than Fred.

                        We were up 3 with 51 seconds left. Fred walked down the court, waived everyone off and took a Steph Curry 3 from way beyond the arc with 10 seconds left on the clock. At that point in the game, a 2, or even 1 of 2 free throws makes it a 2 possession game. I'm not lamenting that Fred missed, I'm lamenting the decision making, and the selfishness, from our point guard. That is a low percentage shot when we needed a high percentage shot to get us 1 or 2 points. The situation did not call for a long distance iso 3 with nobody else touching the ball and leaving 10 seconds on the clock.

                        The second shot at the buzzer that was an air ball... another iso play from Fred, nobody else touched the ball in the last 51 seconds other than Fred. Charles Barkley commented "What the hell was that?".

                        Sure, maybe Nick should have called a time out and ran something. Sure. But also the team should know how to run a motion offence that is designed to get open shots. It wasn't explored. Maybe someone else should have brought the ball up and we should have had Fred running off screens. Again, if Fred runs off a screen and takes and misses 2 shots late - I have zero problem with it (though as mentioned with 51 seconds left the most high percentage shot we could have got would have been the best shot to take - if that's Fred from mid-range, absolutely cool with it).

                        In the scheme of it this one game doesn't matter. What I'm concerned about is what happens going forward. I'm concerned about this pecking order leading to inefficient shots and selfish basketball. I'm concerned about us devolving in to iso ball with the game on the line. Fred and Pascal have both been forcing their offence at times. I suspect they are at the very top of this pecking order. If Fred learns from his late game mistakes in this game, just like we'd expect anyone else should do, great. We'll be a better team for it. I want to see good, efficient shots taken in crunch time. And I want to see the ball move.

                        And just a point about this board. I don't think it's productive to the discourse or particularly interesting to have sacred cows that are somehow beyond criticism on this team, where people get so emotional about it they even resort to name calling.

                        Comment


                        • big boi wrote: View Post

                          This misses the point. Fred is a very good shooter and is a clutch shooter. If we're talking about a catch and shoot 3 for the tie or the win at the buzzer, no other guy I'd want taking it than Fred.

                          We were up 3 with 51 seconds left. Fred walked down the court, waived everyone off and took a Steph Curry 3 from way beyond the arc with 10 seconds left on the clock. At that point in the game, a 2, or even 1 of 2 free throws makes it a 2 possession game. I'm not lamenting that Fred missed, I'm lamenting the decision making, and the selfishness, from our point guard. That is a low percentage shot when we needed a high percentage shot to get us 1 or 2 points. The situation did not call for a long distance iso 3 with nobody else touching the ball and leaving 10 seconds on the clock.

                          The second shot at the buzzer that was an air ball... another iso play from Fred, nobody else touched the ball in the last 51 seconds other than Fred. Charles Barkley commented "What the hell was that?".

                          Sure, maybe Nick should have called a time out and ran something. Sure. But also the team should know how to run a motion offence that is designed to get open shots. It wasn't explored. Maybe someone else should have brought the ball up and we should have had Fred running off screens. Again, if Fred runs off a screen and takes and misses 2 shots late - I have zero problem with it (though as mentioned with 51 seconds left the most high percentage shot we could have got would have been the best shot to take - if that's Fred from mid-range, absolutely cool with it).

                          In the scheme of it this one game doesn't matter. What I'm concerned about is what happens going forward. I'm concerned about this pecking order leading to inefficient shots and selfish basketball. I'm concerned about us devolving in to iso ball with the game on the line. Fred and Pascal have both been forcing their offence at times. I suspect they are at the very top of this pecking order. If Fred learns from his late game mistakes in this game, just like we'd expect anyone else should do, great. We'll be a better team for it. I want to see good, efficient shots taken in crunch time. And I want to see the ball move.

                          And just a point about this board. I don't think it's productive to the discourse or particularly interesting to have sacred cows that are somehow beyond criticism on this team, where people get so emotional about it they even resort to name calling.
                          I don't think anybody is upset with Fred and Pascal getting criticized. It's overboard at times by cough *certain people* cough and that's where it gets annoying. Everybody wants this egalitarian version of beautiful basketball like prime Spurs but it's not as easy as some think.

                          Fred is having a career fucking season. Raw numbers, advanced numbers, shooting efficiency, you name it. And he's doing all that while being ASKED to be the leader of this team, the old vet, and the starting point guard. Basically to step into the GROATS roll. And to my mind, yes he is a far from perfect player, but he brings his lunchpail night in and night out and does what he thinks is best to win. That's all I can personally ask. Others here are mad because he's not a superstar or he's taking Scotties shots or whatever. This is his role and what he's paid to do, and he's doing a good enough job of it. You want a superstar point guard? Well go get him, but don't expect him to cost 20 million.

                          Check our articles around the NBA, Fred is having a good season and is respected. Around here you'd get the impression he's Mike James or Ricky Davis.
                          9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

                          Comment


                          • big boi wrote: View Post

                            In the scheme of it this one game doesn't matter. What I'm concerned about is what happens going forward. I'm concerned about this pecking order leading to inefficient shots and selfish basketball. I'm concerned about us devolving in to iso ball with the game on the line. Fred and Pascal have both been forcing their offence at times. I suspect they are at the very top of this pecking order. If Fred learns from his late game mistakes in this game, just like we'd expect anyone else should do, great. We'll be a better team for it. I want to see good, efficient shots taken in crunch time. And I want to see the ball move.
                            This was something everyone was talking about after Kawhi left: how would the Raptors handle EOG scenarios? Who would be the go-to-guy in the half court late in games or just when they really needed a bucket? That was Lowry the post-championship season but Pascal has struggled in that role given his ball handling issues under pressure and Fred's in a tough spot with his height. Honestly, if the Raps are going to go iso in all EOG circumstances cause of the low risk of a turnover, then the ball should probably go to Trent. He's big enough and quick enough to get his shot off and he's fairly decent at making tough midrange jumpers.

                            The thing with 'pecking orders' is that they establish themselves. If you're at the top by default but you don't get it done, then you get replaced, so this will all sort itself out over time but it's frustrating to watch and it's not entirely the players' fault because guys are being forced to do things that fall outside their skills.

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                            • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                              I don't think anybody is upset with Fred and Pascal getting criticized. It's overboard at times by cough *certain people* cough and that's where it gets annoying. Everybody wants this egalitarian version of beautiful basketball like prime Spurs but it's not as easy as some think.

                              Fred is having a career fucking season. Raw numbers, advanced numbers, shooting efficiency, you name it. And he's doing all that while being ASKED to be the leader of this team, the old vet, and the starting point guard. Basically to step into the GROATS roll. And to my mind, yes he is a far from perfect player, but he brings his lunchpail night in and night out and does what he thinks is best to win. That's all I can personally ask. Others here are mad because he's not a superstar or he's taking Scotties shots or whatever. This is his role and what he's paid to do, and he's doing a good enough job of it. You want a superstar point guard? Well go get him, but don't expect him to cost 20 million.

                              Check our articles around the NBA, Fred is having a good season and is respected. Around here you'd get the impression he's Mike James or Ricky Davis.
                              You can pretty much tell the team is worse when Fred is on the bench, no reliable backup PG, which is why Fred leads the league in minutes. If he played 33 mins or so instead of 38, who knows how many more losses we'd have.

                              Comment


                              • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                                Yes I agree that one of VanVleet’s strength is him being clutch and how he thrives in the 4th quarter. I have acknowledged that positive part of his game in this forum.

                                But last night, there were three possessions that he could have passed the ball 1 out of 3 to his other teammates. But he did not and opted to be the hero which he failed three times.

                                Not disagreeing with you or bb, Fred needs to make better decisions at important stages of the game like last night. Nurse obviously has a lot of trust in FVV and allows him to call his own play. Hopefully its a learning experience for himself as he's new to the role of being the leader of this team.

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