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Game Twenty Eight Raptors at Nets Tuesday December 14th 7:30 pm on SN

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  • slaw wrote: View Post

    This was something everyone was talking about after Kawhi left: how would the Raptors handle EOG scenarios? Who would be the go-to-guy in the half court late in games or just when they really needed a bucket? That was Lowry the post-championship season but Pascal has struggled in that role given his ball handling issues under pressure and Fred's in a tough spot with his height. Honestly, if the Raps are going to go iso in all EOG circumstances cause of the low risk of a turnover, then the ball should probably go to Trent. He's big enough and quick enough to get his shot off and he's fairly decent at making tough midrange jumpers.

    The thing with 'pecking orders' is that they establish themselves. If you're at the top by default but you don't get it done, then you get replaced, so this will all sort itself out over time but it's frustrating to watch and it's not entirely the players' fault because guys are being forced to do things that fall outside their skills.
    That's just it, who is going to be that guy to take those big shots. The only guys that have shown that ability are FVV and Trent and FVV has done it at huge moments. He's not Steph, but he has a similar confidence in his shot. You either cultivate that and he rewards that faith with an eventual breakthrough in ability or you go to the next guy, but this has never been a team under Nurse than does anything other than iso at the end of games.

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    • slaw wrote: View Post

      This was something everyone was talking about after Kawhi left: how would the Raptors handle EOG scenarios? Who would be the go-to-guy in the half court late in games or just when they really needed a bucket? That was Lowry the post-championship season but Pascal has struggled in that role given his ball handling issues under pressure and Fred's in a tough spot with his height. Honestly, if the Raps are going to go iso in all EOG circumstances cause of the low risk of a turnover, then the ball should probably go to Trent. He's big enough and quick enough to get his shot off and he's fairly decent at making tough midrange jumpers.

      The thing with 'pecking orders' is that they establish themselves. If you're at the top by default but you don't get it done, then you get replaced, so this will all sort itself out over time but it's frustrating to watch and it's not entirely the players' fault because guys are being forced to do things that fall outside their skills.
      I dunno about pecking order always sorting itself out. Rudy Gay had to be traded to fix a pecking order problem, once upon a time. Other factors, like seniority, salary and management being invested in the individual often take precedence over actual performance when it comes to who gets the opportunities, role and patience to succeed. It's not unlike business... and pro sports is big business. Some people think it should be a meritocracy, but that's not how the real world works when money is involved.

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      • golden wrote: View Post

        I dunno about pecking order always sorting itself out. Rudy Gay had to be traded to fix a pecking order problem, once upon a time. Other factors, like seniority, salary and management being invested in the individual often take precedence over actual performance when it comes to who gets the opportunities, role and patience to succeed. It's not unlike business... and pro sports is big business. Some people think it should be a meritocracy, but that's not how the real world works when money is involved.
        You think good front offices care about player pecking orders if there even is one?

        If you're not good enough as a high salary player, they'll just trade you. Thats what happened with Rudy Gay. It wasn't about pecking orders, thats the type of player he was, he took shots. It didn't work, Masai traded him. Derozan was at top of the "pecking order" and in terms how much the Raptors invested into him, didn't work, got traded.


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        • LJ2 wrote: View Post

          Not disagreeing with you or bb, Fred needs to make better decisions at important stages of the game like last night. Nurse obviously has a lot of trust in FVV and allows him to call his own play. Hopefully its a learning experience for himself as he's new to the role of being the leader of this team.
          Fred this game deserved both praise and criticism. Doesn't need to be just one or the other. He put up an efficient 31, got others involved with 9 dimes, shot 43% from 3 (on 14 attempts which is hard to do), and he was a big part of the reason we were in a position to take it to OT to begin with. That said, going 51 seconds (while up by 3) being the only guy touching the ball and taking low% iso shots is either poor game planning, poor game execution, or both.

          It's not that Fred is not the right player to take clutch/final shots, is that he's not the right player to run an iso through, especially if the time and score doesn't call for it. We've seen it before this season, him coming all the way from the backcourt, dribbling it out, barreling to the rim with an air ball. He's a good player to take a shot after he's freed up, so let others help you do that by moving the ball (and if there's too much attention on you, that means Trent or Pascal are more open).

          I'm glad we have Fred on our team, he's a confident leader and great ball player. He's cocky though, he's out there calling Scottie (in good nature of course), "one of his most challenging projects", as if he was a 55 year old coach or something. I mean, you're 27 years old, running a team as a solo PG for the first time. How many other "projects" has he had? So that aura is going to spill out on the court sometimes. The counter to that argument though, is if he had drained 1 or 2 triples on that last minute (which he definitely could have as he's clutch and he was hot), no one would be saying a peep.

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          • KeonClark wrote: View Post

            I don't think anybody is upset with Fred and Pascal getting criticized. It's overboard at times by cough *certain people* cough and that's where it gets annoying. Everybody wants this egalitarian version of beautiful basketball like prime Spurs but it's not as easy as some think.

            Fred is having a career fucking season. Raw numbers, advanced numbers, shooting efficiency, you name it. And he's doing all that while being ASKED to be the leader of this team, the old vet, and the starting point guard. Basically to step into the GROATS roll. And to my mind, yes he is a far from perfect player, but he brings his lunchpail night in and night out and does what he thinks is best to win. That's all I can personally ask. Others here are mad because he's not a superstar or he's taking Scotties shots or whatever. This is his role and what he's paid to do, and he's doing a good enough job of it. You want a superstar point guard? Well go get him, but don't expect him to cost 20 million.

            Check our articles around the NBA, Fred is having a good season and is respected. Around here you'd get the impression he's Mike James or Ricky Davis.
            Yeah, neither Fred or Pascal should be beyond criticism, of course. Pascal has had plenty of it actually, some of it fair some of it unfair. We have plenty of guys in new roles on this team, beyond having rookies learning the game and what it takes to win. Fred is in a new role too. And he's doing some good things, he's also doing some bad things. More good than bad, for sure. As long as we're all living and learning, getting better and growing toward a brighter future, then I'm fine with it. Both Fred and Pascal could tighten up their games a little bit to be more efficient (stay within what they're good at, don't force things they're less good at, move the ball, give up the okay shot for a good shot and give up a good shot for a great shot), if they could do that, they'd be more valuable and the Raptors would be a better team.

            Really the only guy that walks on water on this team is Scottie. And of course he makes mistakes and his play is fair game as far as criticism. I think it's great that Fred bets on himself, but he better make sure he doesn't bet against Scottie in the process, because he'll lose that bet. Fred has made great strides, but he risks running afoul of 'The Peter Principle'. This team is not a team of now, and the future is Scottie - we'll be building a team around Scottie. And as has been said right now we should be thinking... if something is good for Scottie's development - we should do that, if something is bad for Scottie's development - we should not do that.

            Scottie has no ceiling. We don't have any other player like that. We have a decent Robin in Pascal, he's proven he can play that role, and he's looking very good again - when he plays within himself. Scottie gives every indication of being able to grow in to a Batman. Where other's fit in as far as being complimentary, I'm not sure - OG was playing at an all star level before he went down, GTJ is looking like a pretty dynamic scorer, and if we have to run iso's in the game, he's not a bad candidate as he's a good shooter who has the height to shoot over defenders. But if we're going to do this pecking order thing, Scottie is at the top - and he's going to be at the top. And everyone else better get used to it - Fred included. And the sooner he does, the better it will be for him and everyone else.

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            • big boi wrote: View Post

              Yeah, neither Fred or Pascal should be beyond criticism, of course. Pascal has had plenty of it actually, some of it fair some of it unfair. We have plenty of guys in new roles on this team, beyond having rookies learning the game and what it takes to win. Fred is in a new role too. And he's doing some good things, he's also doing some bad things. More good than bad, for sure. As long as we're all living and learning, getting better and growing toward a brighter future, then I'm fine with it. Both Fred and Pascal could tighten up their games a little bit to be more efficient (stay within what they're good at, don't force things they're less good at, move the ball, give up the okay shot for a good shot and give up a good shot for a great shot), if they could do that, they'd be more valuable and the Raptors would be a better team.

              Really the only guy that walks on water on this team is Scottie. And of course he makes mistakes and his play is fair game as far as criticism. I think it's great that Fred bets on himself, but he better make sure he doesn't bet against Scottie in the process, because he'll lose that bet. Fred has made great strides, but he risks running afoul of 'The Peter Principle'. This team is not a team of now, and the future is Scottie - we'll be building a team around Scottie. And as has been said right now we should be thinking... if something is good for Scottie's development - we should do that, if something is bad for Scottie's development - we should not do that.

              Scottie has no ceiling. We don't have any other player like that. We have a decent Robin in Pascal, he's proven he can play that role, and he's looking very good again - when he plays within himself. Scottie gives every indication of being able to grow in to a Batman. Where other's fit in as far as being complimentary, I'm not sure - OG was playing at an all star level before he went down, GTJ is looking like a pretty dynamic scorer, and if we have to run iso's in the game, he's not a bad candidate as he's a good shooter who has the height to shoot over defenders. But if we're going to do this pecking order thing, Scottie is at the top - and he's going to be at the top. And everyone else better get used to it - Fred included. And the sooner he does, the better it will be for him and everyone else.
              Selfish basketball….It is mostly an iso focus team initiated by Van Vleet. He wanted to get his on most nights and it’s blatant to see.

              if I am to grade him…he is a C

              he could do better involving his other teammates but doubtful especially having the mindset that he has the key and personal accolades is more of a priority

              Code:
                                                
              Rk                     Team  G AST^
              1     Oklahoma City Thunder 27 20.2
              2           Detroit Pistons 26 21.4
              3           New York Knicks 28 21.4
              4           Toronto Raptors 28 21.4
              5             Orlando Magic 29 21.9
              6          Sacramento Kings 29 22.3
              7        Philadelphia 76ers 29 22.5
              8          Dallas Mavericks 28 22.6
              9                 Utah Jazz 27 22.7
              10           Boston Celtics 28 22.9
              11          Milwaukee Bucks 30 22.9
              12     Los Angeles Clippers 29 23.0
              13          Houston Rockets 28 23.0
              14   Portland Trail Blazers 29 23.0
              15   Minnesota Timberwolves 28 23.1
              16            Chicago Bulls 27 23.3
              17       Washington Wizards 29 23.4
              18           Indiana Pacers 30 23.7
              19            Atlanta Hawks 28 23.9
              20     New Orleans Pelicans 30 24.3
              21       Los Angeles Lakers 29 24.4
              22      Cleveland Cavaliers 30 24.9
              23               Miami Heat 29 25.2
              24        Memphis Grizzlies 29 25.4
              25           Denver Nuggets 28 25.5
              26            Brooklyn Nets 28 25.5
              27             Phoenix Suns 27 26.1
              28        Charlotte Hornets 30 26.5
              29        San Antonio Spurs 27 28.0
              30    Golden State Warriors 28 28.1
                           League Average 28 23.8
              Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
              Generated 12/16/2021.
              Last edited by The Claw Reborn; Thu Dec 16, 2021, 10:08 PM.
              #TradeVanVleet

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              • Don't feel so bad now losing to an undermanned Nets team. Still sucks, but doesn't sting as bad seeing the 76ers lose to them as well.

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                • planetmars wrote: View Post
                  Don't feel so bad now losing to an undermanned Nets team. Still sucks, but doesn't sting as bad seeing the 76ers lose to them as well.
                  Especially considering 76ers with all their stars and almost all impact players. Unlike Raptors with few important guys missing.

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                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    Don't feel so bad now losing to an undermanned Nets team. Still sucks, but doesn't sting as bad seeing the 76ers lose to them as well.
                    Durant became my mvp these last 3 games, as much as I can't stand dude.
                    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                    • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                      Durant became my mvp these last 3 games, as much as I can't stand dude.
                      Yup.. It's between him, Steph and Paul. Will depend on health and record. But right now KD is in the lead.

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                      • Gameday! Looks like the Warriors got the memo about playing at 50% capacity

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                        • Jclaw wrote: View Post
                          Gameday! Looks like the Warriors got the memo about playing at 50% capacity
                          Steph, Draymond and Wiggins playing?

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                          • And it begins for us...

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                            • A.I wrote: View Post
                              And it begins for us...

                              Bloody hell…

                              Dalano as well.

                              OG and Achiuwa back…

                              Comment


                              • Ummm….no gamethread? I know there’s that whole tree falling in a forest thing going on but there’s still a game

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