Game #15: Toronto Raptors 126 - Atlanta Hawks 115

[The Great One]

And again, at this point there are obvious minutes he can take that have nothing to do with closing units and displacing Amir or anyone else.

If someone can make a cogent argument as to why it's better to have Hayes/Hansbrough play up to half the 4th Q instead of him, I'm all ears. Other than the very situational matchups where Hayes would obviously be better as a post-defender.

Oh, and saying "we're 13-2 so Casey is not making any questionable choices" is not a cogent argument.

Because JV most of the time plays the entire 1st and 3rd quarter? Casey usually brings him back into the game w/ 3-4 mins left in the 2nd and 4th quarter unless the matchup is not ideal like the Phoenix game.

But anyways, i'm not gonna get into this silly debate. Raps are 13-2. Amir and James Johnson both played well last night to close out the game. I have no complain.

[white men can't jump]

Because JV most of the time plays the entire 1st and 3rd quarter? Casey usually brings him back into the game w/ 3-4 mins left in the 2nd and 4th quarter unless the matchup is not ideal like the Phoenix game.

But anyways, i'm not gonna get into this silly debate. Raps are 13-2. Amir and James Johnson both played well last night to close out the game. I have no complain.

He's definitely been getting more 1st Q minutes....Not sure his 3rd Q minutes are really up that much. He might play 7-8 minutes instead of the quick hook after 5-6....But he's regularly off the court for nearly a quarter and a half to close the game.

Again, don't need to change philosophies for closing out...but there are definitely early 4th Q minutes that could easily go to Jonas.

*And it's not a complaint, it's a concern. Having an effective Jonas on the court in the 4th would be an obvious boost, and should be a goal going into the playoffs. Lots of season left to go, but one would hope at some point that his minutes start ticking up, again, at least in the earlier parts of the 4th. I've got no problem with Casey using lots of Amir-2Pat/JJ combos in the last 4 minutes or so.

[Quest]

The simple answer is: JV adds a dynamic that nobody else on the team can as an interior presence.

Finding a way to get him on the court should not be so hard. I mean, it's one thing not to close with him, but in a game like last night, why does Chuck Hayes get like 6 minutes in the 4th?....ATL has no big low-post threat. He's in no way better suited to the style of play than JV. To me, this has been bugging me more than JV not closing out games. There are definitely some early 4th Q minutes most nights that are oddly going to Hansbrough/Hayes.

*Ross adds little value at this point. He doesn't impact the game much beyond shooting. He isn't even showing as many "stopper" flashes defensively so far as last year, and that's his best chance to add value and get onto the court. If he's not doing that, guys like GV and Lou can be just as hot from 3 with other talents to offer as well. I'd like for Ross to get more minutes, but it's not like he's being sat for options that are clearly worse than him.

When JV learns how to box out properly, when to rotate and when to help he will get more cracks at 4th quarter and crunch time minutes. He is a decent rebounder but he is definitely not getting subbed for a lesser talent in Hayes. Chuck Hayes has twice the IQ of JV and is very, very good at what he does. He also is a better passer / play maker with much more experience and awareness of in-game situations. I still see JV biting the basketball or hitting himself in the head with it sometimes when he gets caught committing a soft foul or misses an assignment all together. I love JV like any proper fan here but the only things he can do better than Hayes is shooting, finishing around the rim and he has a few inches on him so he is a bigger post threat and rim protector. Not trying to be contrary for the sake of it here but Hayes is getting levelled in the forums every game even though he is really helping us win and hopefully teaching JV how to be a better player in the process.

[mcHAPPY]

That lineup with never happen, Derozan is guaranteed to play in crunch time and Jonas is an afterthought

Great avatar!

[mcHAPPY]

lol, 13-2 and the JV Needs More Minutes chorus continues unabated. A professional coaching staff, that knows more about this 22 year old's performance, and development, than every RR member combined, x 10, and puts out line-ups in crunch time that just keeps winning, against a variety of offenses and defenses, but JV should be getting more time because of his TRB%.

Maybe it's high because the coach keeps him on the floor when he actually produces, and is able to produce? Stats in context. Maybe the coach actually knows what he's doing, in leading the team to by far the best start in franchise history? But if ignoring context of stats, we should have JV, Bebe, and Stiemsma as our 3 man big rotation, because they're better than everybody else, especially Bebe with a 32.7% TRB%! Sit Amir and PPat, to free Bebe!!

Stats need to be taken with context or else you risk losing any credibility with your contribution to discussion. You're better than that.

The continued insistence on coaches know best has merit but you've never seen a player go to a new team or coach change or increased opportunity and blow up? The player didn't change, the circumstances did.

[mcHAPPY]

I agree. The team is off to the best start in franchise history, we're leading all sorts of statistics in the 4th quarter, but fans still know better than Casey. We are leading those 4th quarter stats because Casey is putting the right line up out there, and yes not having JV out there is a big part of that. I understand that he needs to learn and being in these situations is key for that growth, but at the risk of winning?

Who is to say JV won't make the stats and 4th quarter better?

A big part of the point I believe Zach Lowe is attempting to make is JV isn't getting the opportunity or chance.

[mcHAPPY]

You mean the Hayes that was part of the line-up that gave the team a 10 pt lead, and held it? The one whose D communication helps that unit defend against the opponent that gives up that lead? You're actually wondering why he got those minutes? C'mon, man, I know you LOVE Jonas, but it's the Toronto Raptors, that are 13-2, not the Toronto JVs. Jonas is a 22 year old big that is still growing into his body, and into the NBA game. He keeps working and his time will come. In the meantime, the coach is making decisions that keep this team winning, and playing together as a team, so suggesting it would be no different, or even better, if he did this or that is getting a tad presumptuous.

So something worked one game so we're going to stick with it 'come hell or high water'? That decision was a great one in that game because Gasol had his way with JV the entire game. Yet again as stated in a previous post, a big part of Zach Lowe's point is that JV isn't even getting an opportunity as evidenced by the lack of 4th quarter minutes. It is even more peculiar given the stats say he is playing his best in the 4th Q. Sounds more like a coach with no confidence in his player versus a player who can't contribute.


By the way, the Toronto JVs comment is quite hypocritical given the enormous knot of panties you had over the whole District of DeRozan.

[mcHAPPY]

When JV learns how to box out properly, when to rotate and when to help he will get more cracks at 4th quarter and crunch time minutes. He is a decent rebounder but he is definitely not getting subbed for a lesser talent in Hayes. Chuck Hayes has twice the IQ of JV and is very, very good at what he does. He also is a better passer / play maker with much more experience and awareness of in-game situations. I still see JV biting the basketball or hitting himself in the head with it sometimes when he gets caught committing a soft foul or misses an assignment all together. I love JV like any proper fan here but the only things he can do better than Hayes is shooting, finishing around the rim and he has a few inches on him so he is a bigger post threat and rim protector. Not trying to be contrary for the sake of it here but Hayes is getting levelled in the forums every game even though he is really helping us win and hopefully teaching JV how to be a better player in the process.

What you are seeing is people criticizing Hayes for his faults - real or imagined - much like you see people criticizing JV for his faults - real or imagined - as you have just done with JV.

At some point you have to give JV a chance. That is what Lowe is stating and I agree. People continue to point to the 13-2 record etc. etc. etc. What are you going to do next season when Hayes is quite possibly gone?

[chico]

So something worked one game so we're going to stick with it 'come hell or high water'? That decision was a great one in that game because Gasol had his way with JV the entire game. Yet again as stated in a previous post, a big part of Zach Lowe's point is that JV isn't even getting an opportunity as evidenced by the lack of 4th quarter minutes. It is even more peculiar given the stats say he is playing his best in the 4th Q. Sounds more like a coach with no confidence in his player versus a player who can't contribute.


By the way, the Toronto JVs comment is quite hypocritical given the enormous knot of panties you had over the whole District of DeRozan.

``That decision was a great one in that game because Gasol had his way with JV the entire game.``

Umm, I believe we`re debating Hayes being in for the 4th qtr of the Atlanta game, not vs Gasol and Memphis, so where this belongs, I have no idea.

``a big part of Zach Lowe's point is that JV isn't even getting an opportunity as evidenced by the lack of 4th quarter minutes.``

So, you see Lowe as a greater authority on how to handle JV`s development than an NBA coaching staff that works with him, and the GM named Masai, that you say looks ahead further, yet gives the emphatic stamp of approval to how this team is being handled by that staff. Yup, all hail Zack lowe!!!

``By the way, the Toronto JVs comment is quite hypocritical given the enormous knot of panties you had over the whole District of DeRozan. ``

awwwww, ain`t you cute.

[mcHAPPY]

``That decision was a great one in that game because Gasol had his way with JV the entire game.``

Umm, I believe we`re debating Hayes being in for the 4th qtr of the Atlanta game, not vs Gasol and Memphis, so where this belongs, I have no idea.

``a big part of Zach Lowe's point is that JV isn't even getting an opportunity as evidenced by the lack of 4th quarter minutes.``

So, you see Lowe as a greater authority on how to handle JV`s development than an NBA coaching staff that works with him, and the GM named Masai, that you say looks ahead further, yet gives the emphatic stamp of approval to how this team is being handled by that staff. Yup, all hail Zack lowe!!!

``By the way, the Toronto JVs comment is quite hypocritical given the enormous knot of panties you had over the whole District of DeRozan. ``

awwwww, ain`t you cute.

You're not stupid.

At some point I hope you drop the insistent attempts to diminish other people's views and credibility who hold different opinions than your own.

I think it would really add to the RR forum community and result in some very good discussion and, hey, you never know, you might actually change someone's perspective.

[Quest]

What you are seeing is people criticizing Hayes for his faults - real or imagined - much like you see people criticizing JV for his faults - real or imagined - as you have just done with JV.

At some point you have to give JV a chance. That is what Lowe is stating and I agree. People continue to point to the 13-2 record etc. etc. etc. What are you going to do next season when Hayes is quite possibly gone?

I want JV to get his opportunity as much as anyone. He is a truly high character player that will fit perfectly with team as he grows. His positives by far outweigh the negatives regardless so it's not a great difference of opinion here just a preferred method or approach. To answer your question, by next season JV should be much more resolved and if Hayes isn't here then I hope he remembers these times they had together. I also believe that JV has the highest ceiling on the team and could boost the 4th quarter performance in other ways, even now. I don't watch the record too closely these days as thrilling as it is because that could all go out the window. I guess I sound like I'm just defending Hayes here partly because he is being picked apart but also because I have trouble comparing JV and Hayes. They each have different glaring weaknesses and they're so uniquely different (and each very valuable to this team right now.) I hope that by next year it will be hard to take JV out of the games down the stretch. Hopefully JV will become White Shaq of the 21st century and we will all be staggered by his sheer determination and greatness!

[mcHAPPY]

[Other Scott]

We have to stop bringing up Hayes in terms of 4th quarter minutes compared to JV. Hayes had more 4th quarter minutes because the bench always starts the 4th.

We're talking about crunch time. And more often than not, Casey goes with the Amir/ Patterson combo in crunch time. I have no problem with that combo and it's worked dividends for the Raptors.

[Mediumcore]

Who is to say JV won't make the stats and 4th quarter better?

A big part of the point I believe Zach Lowe is attempting to make is JV isn't getting the opportunity or chance.

I asked the question in another thread but how different would JV play in 4 TH quarter vs the first three. He get minutes against starters so his development isn't being stunted. It's the best of both worlds to be able to develop young players and win games.

[mcHAPPY]

I asked the question in another thread but how different would JV play in 4 TH quarter vs the first three. He get minutes against starters so his development isn't being stunted. It's the best of both worlds to be able to develop young players and win games.

I don't mean this personally or as an insult but.....

You haven't played at a high level if you think start or middle of game is the same as tight, end of game with clock winding down.