Game #72 Raps at Bulls Monday March 21st 8:00pm on TSN

[Dvdvideo]

well we know it's been bothering him since the all star break and he's looked pretty bad since then (22 for 79 from 3, shooting like westbrook). there's about 3 weeks left in the season and the team is in a tight playoff race. i know you're an optimist but so do you see him getting that rest?

50/50, we will see how it plays out. Og coming back would sure expedite those chances.

[KeonClark]

If the draft was today, we'd be moving down 15 spots... 10 is the best case, I believe.

Seems like a bunch of factors came together for the front office to make the Thad trade: (a) we didn't want the optics of buying out Dragic ourselves, so we had to pay the Spurs to do it, (b) Masai/Bobby wanted to reward the starting 5 for the faux winning streak, (c) Nurse embarrassed the front office by playing his starters 40 (and sometimes 50), minutes per game, (d) we felt the pressure to do SOMETHING and the other options (e.g. Eric Gordon) in a sellers market, were too expensive.

Seems like the one thing that's been lacking in the front office last few years has been pro scouting. Still drafting well (Barnes, banton), still making good higher profile trades (norm for gary, I think precious will end up being a great asset from lowry), but there has been a LONG list of wings(and bigs) coming in since 2019 with the intention to be our 7th or 8th or 9th man that are washed, rinsed, or going through the spin cycle. You could do almost one of those Oscar's "in memoriam" slide shows with the mccaws and the Stanley's and the Svi's, the bembrys and the baynes.

[golden]

Seems like the one thing that's been lacking in the front office last few years has been pro scouting. Still drafting well (Barnes, banton), still making good higher profile trades (norm for gary, I think precious will end up being a great asset from lowry), but there has been a LONG list of wings(and bigs) coming in since 2019 with the intention to be our 7th or 8th or 9th man that are washed, rinsed, or going through the spin cycle. You could do almost one of those Oscar's "in memoriam" slide shows with the mccaws and the Stanley's and the Svi's, the bembrys and the baynes.

I think the philosophy changed after we won the chip. We started believing in and drinking our own koolaid of "defense wins championships". We've mostly been bringing in defensive types who we believe we can teach shooting (spoiler alert: we can't). Sure, there are the odd Svi's, who Nurse kept tabs on and Matt Thomases, who are shooters, but the archetype since 2019 is fairly consistent: plays defense, high motor, stone hands.

My un-founded theory is that they are still over-compensating from getting swept in the playoffs with guys like Lou Will and DeMar. Winning the championship with 2-way players instead of 1-way bucket getters, validated that stance. And finishing 2nd in DRTG in the title defense year, entrenched that position. Defense is basically the first checkbox for any player coming in here these days.

[inthepaint]

theres got to be some friction between the coaching staff and ownership, no? i dont know if theres pressure from above to try and force their way into the playoffs or if thats nurses own goal while sacrificing any sort of player development from the bench. or he just thinks the FO is stupid as hell for providing him with a roster he hates.

this team has really only "lucked out" with specific injuries with OG and vanvleet to make way for precious and barnes. and i refuse to believe theres any specific reason why Yuta isn't even part of the rotation at all. they've given armoni brooks way more chances despite him shitting the majority of his play time. its weird. technically svi is still the better 3 point shooter this season yet he gets yanked immediately if he misses one. hell, yuta outshoots both of them.

either way, last i checked, raptors bench scoring is literally last in the league. i dont know if it means they're THAT bad or its because they don't even get the right opportunity to play/develop.

I don't think there's friction between Nurse and the FO, Nurse won a title for them on his first year as head coach, and the FO made the exact trades needed to allow him to do it.

That said, Nurse wears his development and winning hats at separate times, never at the same time: He'll give the Nurse "pill" shooting basketball to teach shooting, work on the fundamentals of the game patiently, draw from the other leagues he coached to teach these guys etc.. in practice time. Coming in game time he's out there to win. You gotta execute the scheme and produce, otherwise take a seat, it's the next guy's turn. He won't give nba minutes out just for the sake of development.

He'll play his best available players at the present time (with the maximum minutes he reasonably can) to give the team the best shot at winning, and if you want minutes you gotta earn them. He'll do that regardless if the team is on a "winning" or "development" year, and regardless of players age and roster construction. It's an apporach that has its drawbacks but it's hard to fault the logic behind it: His job is to put a winning product on the floor at game time - players and the FO just gotta do their end, and keep up with it.

The one knock I have on that approach is that he's got different size leashes for the guys. It's been more equitable as of late, but there's been some favouritism in the past. The other thing is if you go too hard on the sink-or-swim you may not know what you really have and pass on guys that with some more opportunity could turn into a helpful piece (eg oshae brissett), but I think ultimately that can happen with any team.

[LJ2]

theres got to be some friction between the coaching staff and ownership, no? i dont know if theres pressure from above to try and force their way into the playoffs or if thats nurses own goal while sacrificing any sort of player development from the bench. or he just thinks the FO is stupid as hell for providing him with a roster he hates.

this team has really only "lucked out" with specific injuries with OG and vanvleet to make way for precious and barnes. and i refuse to believe theres any specific reason why Yuta isn't even part of the rotation at all. they've given armoni brooks way more chances despite him shitting the majority of his play time. its weird. technically svi is still the better 3 point shooter this season yet he gets yanked immediately if he misses one. hell, yuta outshoots both of them.

either way, last i checked, raptors bench scoring is literally last in the league. i dont know if it means they're THAT bad or its because they don't even get the right opportunity to play/develop.

Nurse and Massai have always seemed like they are on the same page. Nurse has mentioned in the past that he and Massai speak daily, so I think if there are any conflicts it's nothing serious.

For example I'm thinking Nurse wants to compete and win as many games as possible right now, but in managements eyes they see how far away core players like Barnes, Trent and Precious are and how much even further away the bench squad are. To optimize the chances of contending when the young players are coming of age but before Fred and Pascal are too old, Masai has to line up cap space to make a big move or just to sign some of his core guys. He's not going to mess with that objective by trying to bring win now guys before it's time.

So to make Nurse (and players) happy, Masai tells them to go ahead and compete, but I'm not giving you any more resources to do it.

[golden]

I don't think there's friction between Nurse and the FO, Nurse won a title for them on his first year as head coach, and the FO made the exact trades needed to allow him to do it.

That said, Nurse wears his development and winning hats at separate times, never at the same time: He'll give the Nurse "pill" shooting basketball to teach shooting, work on the fundamentals of the game patiently, draw from the other leagues he coached to teach these guys etc.. in practice time. Coming in game time he's out there to win. You gotta execute the scheme and produce, otherwise take a seat, it's the next guy's turn. He won't give nba minutes out just for the sake of development.

He'll play his best available players at the present time (with the maximum minutes he reasonably can) to give the team the best shot at winning, and if you want minutes you gotta earn them. He'll do that regardless if the team is on a "winning" or "development" year, and regardless of players age and roster construction. It's an apporach that has its drawbacks but it's hard to fault the logic behind it: His job is to put a winning product on the floor at game time - players and the FO just gotta do their end, and keep up with it.

The one knock I have on that approach is that he's got different size leashes for the guys. It's been more equitable as of late, but there's been some favouritism in the past. The other thing is if you go too hard on the sink-or-swim you may not know what you really have and pass on guys that with some more opportunity could turn into a helpful piece (eg oshae brissett), but I think ultimately that can happen with any team.

NBA players from Lowry to Devin Booker say the same thing about their own development. It comes down to 3 key factors: (1) getting consistent minutes to play through your mistakes, (2) a coach that believes in you, and helps build confidence in you, (3) a role/situation that fits your game.

Nurse is mixed bag when it comes to which guys get the benefit of all 3 factors. Some guys get yanked in and out of the lineup quickly with changing roles and a select few get a long enough leash to eventually prove themselves. I don't 100% fault Nurse for being short-term focused, trying to win every game, because Masai does tend to put out a mixed message that it's all about winning. But player development requires playing through your mistakes, which is going to impact winning negatively. It's a conflict.

Specific skills development (shooting, dribbling, counters, etc...) happens mostly in the off-season and during the season with the assistant coaches. Pascal, for example, has been well-documented using Rico Hines in the off-season as his main development base. So, it's no coincidence that a Rico Hines guy, Earl Watson, has helped Pascal reach a new level this year.

[G__Deane]

Yeah, this is one thing my hockey buddies always mock about basketball. In their eyes, basketball is already a sissy sport because of no-contact... but then you have these phantom fouls that nobody can see that take it to the next level. It also open it up wondering if the games are fake and controlled like pro-wrestling. I mean, if the hardcore basketball fans like us can't even see the fouls, what are the casuals to think? It looks totally random and arbitrary to them.

Personally I think it would be a much better sport if they allowed incidental contact but that's me.
Oh wasit, that's a lot of people ....

But beyond the the ticky tack/light contact calls, at least be able to see what you're calling. If it looks like a foul (through acting/flopping/yelling but you aren't in position to see it, DON'T CALL IT becuase you can't call what you don't see. And the constant calls that are only made if the ball doesn't go in are ridiculous, sometimes multi-second late whistles.

I don't know if it looks exactly fake as in set predetermined play outcomes between two willing parties but it does open itself to gambling questions and certainly, an unwritten NBA guideline to favour large market, superstar teams (ie TV revenue).

It only takes a few calls per game to swing outcomes. And then you also see calls attempting to even the numbers out somewhat, but only when the game is out of reach.

With regards to hockey, you don't see hooking calls where the stick never touches the guy, maybe a call where the tug shouldn't have been enough or the hooked player embellishes (even there they call embellishing and that the most embarrassing thing that can happen). In the NFL, you don't see facemask calls where the guy's hand didn't quite touch him.

The phantom calls in the NBA are ridiculous never mind the weak/incidental contact/reputation calls/favoured player status ones.

I guess my rant wasn't over

[KeonClark]

Reffing was great at the start of the season, and so were the 107-105 scores. Now we're back up higher than ever, regularly seeing 140+ regulation points, 40 point nights are nothing, and free throw parades are common.

[G__Deane]

Really tough 3rd quarter. Raptors went into that 6 minute stretch with no field goals. I think it was Brooks that got the first bucket. Lots of turnovers. Lots of empty possessions. Bulls got a lot of points in transition and rammed it down our throats. It happens too often with this team. Same thing happened in Philly but our defense kept us in it.

Raptors need that game breaker. Guy that can just get 2 points no matter what. Fred couldn't do it (he was really bad). Pascal was getting hounded and got no help. Barnes had a bad game. Precious didn't have it. Birch was our second best player maybe, and that's part of why we did so bad.

Really important game and we didn't get it done. I know they were tired but that's an excuse.

DeMar was fantastic. He had guys draped all over him and still nailed every jumper. Guy has really grown since playing with Pop.

Raptors are 29th(!) in 3rd quarter offense since Christmas (not a small sample size)
No they're not tired, no it's not minutes because they're 7th in 4th quarter points.

They do the same to start games, come out slow and stone cold.

A good start would be to not start Birch even again....and get a competent situational 20 minute C for next year for when the funky lineups aren't working

[DanH]

Raptors are 29th(!) in 3rd quarter offense since Christmas (not a small sample size)
No they're not tired, no it's not minutes because they're 7th in 4th quarter points.

They do the same to start games, come out slow and stone cold.

A good start would be to not start Birch even again....and get a competent situational 20 minute C for next year for when the funky lineups aren't working

Considering Khem Birch has the highest on-court ORTG on the team since Christmas, methinks you might be misidentifying the culprit. It's the defence that has really struggled with him on the court in that time span. Precious has the opposite problem, the offence dies with him on the court and the defence is great.

I think the team would be well served to see what Precious can do starting in Birch's spot. But it's not much of a candidate to fix early half scoring woes. The main thing they should definitely do is avoid ever playing the two of them together. That's very silly.

[slaw]

Reffing was great at the start of the season, and so were the 107-105 scores. Now we're back up higher than ever, regularly seeing 140+ regulation points, 40 point nights are nothing, and free throw parades are common.

I get frustrated with some of the NBA officiating and there are good refs and bad refs. But they are still objectively really good and all you need to do to confirm that is go watch some NCAA rugby, er basketball, to see what happens when you start to swallow the whistle.

I do agree though that the start of the year was much better but the league clearly didn't like what it was seeing and hearing from its stars. Though there has been some regression, those awful plays where out of control offensive players flail about for contact looking to get bailed out seem to be much fewer these days than in the past.

[G__Deane]

That's an interesting idea. Thad starting might be a way to get him playing better...or it could get us off to even worse starts. Might be worth a try. We've always had a difficult time breaking in new bench players under Nurse... even solid vets. Thad is the latest newbie role player to struggle learning the system... which he mentioned was tough to grasp.

Maybe instead of drafting/trading for length, Masai should draft for IQ

[A.I]

Thad is one of those dudes that help good players get a bit better by making their lives easier, but he can’t do anything on his own to elevate a bench lineup. Kind of like Gasol. Gasol wasn't going to score 15 off the bench, but he made the starting lineup look better by defending and passing.

[KeonClark]

Thad is one of those dudes that help good players get a bit better by making their lives easier, but he can’t do anything on his own to elevate a bench lineup. Kind of like Gasol. Gasol wasn't going to score 15 off the bench, but he made the starting lineup look better by defending and passing.

I wouldn't go that far. I've come to realize how little we appreciated how good Marc gasol actually was. Maybe it was because we lost JV, and he wasn't Marc gasol of all star Memphis days and barely shot the ball. But gasol was absolutely sublime for Toronto in 2019 and 2020.

[A.I]

I wouldn't go that far. I've come to realize how little we appreciated how good Marc gasol actually was. Maybe it was because we lost JV, and he wasn't Marc gasol of all star Memphis days and barely shot the ball. But gasol was absolutely sublime for Toronto in 2019 and 2020.

I'm not comparing the 2, Marc has one of the highest IQs I've ever seen and he had a large impact, but in a similar fashion, Thad would look better and make the starting 5 look better.