Game 77: Raptors at Magic, Fri Apr 1, 2022, 7:00 PM, SN

[TrueTorontoFan]

I want Precious to start and I’ve said that from the start of the season. I’ve wanted Gary to be our guy off the bench. That’s no slight to Gary…. And I’m not DanH’s echo minion

Yeah, me wanting to put Scottie on the bench was a suggestion because I wanted him to have more run and freedom to flash his potential. I personally suggested running him with the starting unit and pulling him early to have him run the bench. It had nothing to do with Birch.


I already suggested and quoted that suggestion recently that Thad was likely going to make Birch expendable in the off-season.

Birch has been injury prone, and while he has had a few moments early on where he offered a stable option who could play without goofing up too much. In terms of precious I liked precious but felt that he couldn't catch the ball and struggled to finish. He also acted as a good chaos engine with the second unit which fit that unit's identity.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Birch is out if the rotation now as he should be. Thad is way better, and so is precious and Boucher brings game changing energy. Any other bench minutes should go to Flynn or Brooks.

Is it possible to use a TPE in a sign and trade?

[TrueTorontoFan]

Dan, I think it would be nice to see precious start for the experiment that Nurse likes to do but I think for the playoffs you roll with what you know works. The 6'9er line up is solid. I think in the future its something that could be worth a look. I have said this, I haven't harped it as much as claw but Fred does have physical limitations long term as a ball handler and playmaker that Barnes doesn't just by virtue of being tall even not to mention the other aspects. Again I think once he gets that jumper from beyond the arc locked down it would be worth it to explore some other avenues to make Barnes the permanent what ever the heck he wants to be. If its run point then let him do that. I do not think running Barnes as the center (although OG usually guards centers when healthy especially against guys like joker) is a good idea physically long term.

[Yuri Gagarin]

As soon as we lock up sixth shut this thing down. Doesnt really matter who we face these guys need rest

[planetmars]

I am concerned about his mindset in the playoffs especially when teams would game plan him…blitz him and zone in on him when he initiates plays…he has this mentality sometimes that he wanted to put the team on his shoulders but when his outside shots are not falling, that could be a disadvantage. He can get away it against Teams like the Shitty Orlando…..but versus contending teams?

Consensus around here is that, he is more effective playing OFF the ball and let Barnes or Siakam initiate the offense.
Barnes or Siakam have a higher vantage point and more than willing passers when teams would attempt to blitz or trap the On ball initiator.

The first half is crucial because opposing teams still have fresh legs to play tight defenses, why I thought there is correlation for the poor start. But lesser teams playing back to backs cannot sustain it for 48 minutes. In the playoffs however, with much rest in between games and the advantage of game planning, this could be something of a concern.

He does offset though with his clutch genes and relentless defense. So most of the time, he balances it out

We will find out soon.

Fred still doesn't look 100%. Early in the season when he was getting by his defender he was able to make plays without getting blocked or defended at the rim as easily as he's been post all star break. His shot is off as well but it's mostly because he doesn't have his legs I think. That's the most concerning thing I have.

But he's been amazing on defense. Just creating so much havoc and chaos all by himself.

He single handily created 9 turnovers against the Magic:

He created 11 against the Wolves:

He's doing the Kyle stuff that made him the GROAT. He's just not able to get his shooting down yet. Basically he's playing like 34 year old Kyle instead of 28-29 year old Kyle. Still a good player, but he can be better.

Let's hope we get prime Kyle out of Fred for the playoffs.

[G__Deane]

Birch is out if the rotation now as he should be. Thad is way better, and so is precious and Boucher brings game changing energy. Any other bench minutes should go to Flynn or Brooks.

The problem is Birch is signed here for 2 more years after this for 6-$7M ....how/when did that happen?
Thad is double that but done after this season.

Can Masai re-sign Thad for Birch money and replace Birch with a situational centre?

[Kagemusha]

As soon as we lock up sixth shut this thing down. Doesnt really matter who we face these guys need rest

The East is pretty tight we might not get that luxury at all

[golden]

Fred still doesn't look 100%. Early in the season when he was getting by his defender he was able to make plays without getting blocked or defended at the rim as easily as he's been post all star break. His shot is off as well but it's mostly because he doesn't have his legs I think. That's the most concerning thing I have.

But he's been amazing on defense. Just creating so much havoc and chaos all by himself.

He single handily created 9 turnovers against the Magic:

He created 11 against the Wolves:

He's doing the Kyle stuff that made him the GROAT. He's just not able to get his shooting down yet. Basically he's playing like 34 year old Kyle instead of 28-29 year old Kyle. Still a good player, but he can be better.

Let's hope we get prime Kyle out of Fred for the playoffs.

The major difference is that Kyle gets easy shots for lesser players and elevates bench guys. Fred still doesn’t have that chemistry or timing to create advantages for his teammates to get easy baskets. Lowry just had that knack. Fred often puts his teammates in short clock situations where they have to create.

[planetmars]

The major difference is that Kyle gets easy shots for lesser players and elevates bench guys. Fred still doesn’t have that chemistry or timing to create advantages for his teammates to get easy baskets. Lowry just had that knack. Fred often puts his teammates in short clock situations where they have to create.

Yeah.. the playmaking thing is a different story. I'd say Siakam is a better playmaker than Fred, and is likely why he has the ball more than Fred when they are both on the floor together. Fred cannot elevate a bench like Kyle could. Even the on/off thing has stabilized since the ASG. Kyle was always leading in that stat on this team, even in bad years.

So, it's definitely a reach to say Fred is playing like 34 year old Lowry. I meant more in the intangible stuff on defense + shooting. Not the playmaking, working the refs, trying to win each possession type of stuff that Kyle did. But Fred is also pretty young. He's hitting the same age Kyle was when we just started the We the North era. Hopefully we see some more growth in Fred. His knee soreness/injury really derailed his season though. He was pretty awesome when the season started. Still remember how he willed the team to victory over the Utah scrubs.

[Primer]

The problem is Birch is signed here for 2 more years after this for 6-$7M ....how/when did that happen?
Thad is double that but done after this season.

Can Masai re-sign Thad for Birch money and replace Birch with a situational centre?

Birch is good trade filler and I suspect that's how he'll be used. On the other hand if we lose Boucher we will need him to play some. His contract is pretty cheap relative to the cap so not an albatross.

[LJ2]

Yeah.. the playmaking thing is a different story. I'd say Siakam is a better playmaker than Fred, and is likely why he has the ball more than Fred when they are both on the floor together. Fred cannot elevate a bench like Kyle could. Even the on/off thing has stabilized since the ASG. Kyle was always leading in that stat on this team, even in bad years.

So, it's definitely a reach to say Fred is playing like 34 year old Lowry. I meant more in the intangible stuff on defense + shooting. Not the playmaking, working the refs, trying to win each possession type of stuff that Kyle did. But Fred is also pretty young. He's hitting the same age Kyle was when we just started the We the North era. Hopefully we see some more growth in Fred. His knee soreness/injury really derailed his season though. He was pretty awesome when the season started. Still remember how he willed the team to victory over the Utah scrubs.

Fred isn't the playmaker that Kyle was but probably is the better scorer.

Makes sense for Pascal to have the ball more with Fred hobbled and it also leverages Fred's catch and shoot game to clear defenses from the paint so Pascal can do his thing.

Like you said Fred is the same age as when Kyle started coming into his own.The GROAT is the GROAT for a reason but Fred isn't a huge drop and is improving still.

[DanH]

You have been relentless ALL SEASON about this small group line up to start games….

first part of the season: you and your echo chamber minions wanted Birch to start at the expense of Scottie Barnes

second part of the season: you and your echo chamber minions now wanted Precious to start at the expense of GTJ

just give it up already because it is not happening….Nick Nurse is not changing the starting line up.

Uh, yes, I'll take it as a compliment that you noticed that I was able to identify that the small lineup wouldn't be very good early in the season and then they piled up 400 minutes of evidence to support that.

I'm 100% with you: Nick will almost certainly not go away from the small lineup. I've been putting that in every game thread I've started. That doesn't mean he's right to stick with it. Casey stuck with starting Scola all year for no reason and of course ended up having to abandon it in the playoffs. This is different because Scola was bad while this lineup is just a bad fit for the opening minutes of games. But could cost us in the playoffs just the same.

No one wants anyone to start at anyone's expense. The guys who would not start would still get the minutes, just not in that lineup. No expense. Just better fit. Early in the season Precious couldn't be trusted, thankfully he's made huge strides. Now the only reason to start Birch is to save Precious for the bench, a crutch Nick is starting to rely on too much and may cause some tough last minute figuring it out in the playoffs if we are ever forced to switch to starting Precious (seems likely).

[TrueTorontoFan]

Fred still doesn't look 100%. Early in the season when he was getting by his defender he was able to make plays without getting blocked or defended at the rim as easily as he's been post all star break. His shot is off as well but it's mostly because he doesn't have his legs I think. That's the most concerning thing I have.

But he's been amazing on defense. Just creating so much havoc and chaos all by himself.

He single handily created 9 turnovers against the Magic:

He created 11 against the Wolves:

He's doing the Kyle stuff that made him the GROAT. He's just not able to get his shooting down yet. Basically he's playing like 34 year old Kyle instead of 28-29 year old Kyle. Still a good player, but he can be better.

Let's hope we get prime Kyle out of Fred for the playoffs.

I do miss kyles ability to take a charge.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Birch is good trade filler and I suspect that's how he'll be used. On the other hand if we lose Boucher we will need him to play some. His contract is pretty cheap relative to the cap so not an albatross.

that's exactly how I see it. You trade birch and potentially add something like a pick perhaps to try and get a guy like Gary Harris? Alternatively some Nurkic perhaps. Or you are using the TPE along with Birch to get a "distressed" asset.

[DanH]

that's exactly how I see it. You trade birch and potentially add something like a pick perhaps to try and get a guy like Gary Harris? Alternatively some Nurkic perhaps. Or you are using the TPE along with Birch to get a "distressed" asset.

To answer this and a question above I think: you can receive a player in a trade with a TPE, including in a SnT.

But no matter what kind of trade it is, you cannot combine the TPE with other TPEs or players to bring back more salary. If the TPE is 10M, it can help you trade for a player making 10M or less. If the player makes 11M, that TPE cannot help you trade for that player. You can't trade Birch's 7M and use a 10M TPE to trade for a 17M player.