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Everything Playoffs 2022 (Non-Raptors Thread)

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  • golden wrote: View Post

    Sorry Demo, there's absolutely no vindication for Tim W to be had here. He projected Wiggins to be a sure-fire Batman, when in fact, he turned out to be a nice Robin. We already had our Robins in Pascal and Lowry. Tim W still remains... Tim L.
    Time heals all wounds... even those from the epic tong wars on tank vs no tank.
    Happy for Wiggins. ...
    and
    In the spirit of truth and reconciliation Tim W's name gets a small mention on page 36 of the Sunday classifieds right after the used lawn mower ads as being right on Wiggins ability.

    A little something for the greatest tank commander of all time.
    And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

    Comment


    • planetmars wrote: View Post

      You have to define what "elite" is though. I don't think you can be too broad in that definition. Kevin Love was absolutely not elite. Neither was Kyrie when the Cavs won. I don't think Kyrie was ever really elite. He wasn't ever an MVP candidate or a type 5-7 player in the league. He made the all-nba second team in 2019. That was his peak there. He's a really good player, but elite and very good should have a pretty sizable gap.

      Wade was a 2010 all-nba first team selection.. so in that sense he was a top 5 player when Lebron joined him.

      I think you need 2 of some of the greatest players in the game on the team at the same time. And by greatest I mean guys that are all-nba first team every other year. Like hall of fame locks. Guys that should carry their own team to a championship on their own. The league usually has 4-5 guys like this every year. Harden doesn't fit that this year. Kyrie doesn't either. George doesn't either.

      This season there were no super teams in my opinion. Mostly because Lebron and Davis were both old and hurt.

      A super team example would be if Giannis went to Dallas to play with Luka. Or Jokic played with KD. Or Embiid played with Curry. Those would be super teams. An out of shape Harden who doesn't give a sh!t anymore is no longer "elite" IMO.
      I don't think we're far off each other in our definitions. Except AS games (especially those with team quotas or popularity components) should never be used to define greatness.

      Celtics were the first modern day super team. Then Miami did it in brazen collusion. lebron attempted it again in LA, Ballmer tried his version with the Clippers and then the Nets did the same. It's not worked out for most of them.

      GSW, with the exception of the Durant Chip have done it the right way, more the old Spurs way. Celtics now too.
      The modern day buddy-ups cheapen the ring imo.

      Comment


      • G__Deane wrote: View Post

        I don't think we're far off each other in our definitions. Except AS games (especially those with team quotas or popularity components) should never be used to define greatness.

        Celtics were the first modern day super team. Then Miami did it in brazen collusion. lebron attempted it again in LA, Ballmer tried his version with the Clippers and then the Nets did the same. It's not worked out for most of them.

        GSW, with the exception of the Durant Chip have done it the right way, more the old Spurs way. Celtics now too.
        The modern day buddy-ups cheapen the ring imo.
        I used all-nba not all-star. All-nba is a lot more legit, as there is no fan voting. Wade was legit in 2011. He fell off a cliff not too long after though.

        I don't consider that Celtics team with KG, Allen and Pierce a super team. Pierce wasn't quite a top 5 player. But I am splitting hairs there since Allen was still a really, really good player.

        And I do agree that Balmer wanted to create something.. I just think he missed the mark. George isn't a super star. And they had nobody else to play 3rd fiddle.

        GSW with KD was definitely a super team. I agree.

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        • golden wrote: View Post

          Sorry Demo, there's absolutely no vindication for Tim W to be had here. He projected Wiggins to be a sure-fire Batman, when in fact, he turned out to be a nice Robin. We already had our Robins in Pascal and Lowry. Tim W still remains... Tim L.
          I mean not even Robin. Their team isn't a 2-piece. Keeping the comic book analogy going he's like Cyborg on the Justice League. Cool in spurts but it's really Superman doing all the heavy lifting.

          Also we saw Wiggins as lead dog and it did not result in a championship. It was a very bad team. Tim W was also all about Jabari Parker too, it was a can't miss draft, so yeah he's still a total buffoon.

          Comment


          • I would say pairing three top 25 guys together constitutes a super team. One must be in the top 10 though. I think it also has to be a manufactured team as well. I think if it’s a home grown team like the 80’s Celtics or the 80’s Lakers, Bulls (maybe the Rodman years puts them over the line). or even the Spurs it doesn’t count.

            Lebron’s Cavs team was a super team IMO. Love was a perennial all-star double double guy.

            Comment


            • saints91 wrote: View Post
              I would say pairing three top 25 guys together constitutes a super team. One must be in the top 10 though. I think it also has to be a manufactured team as well. I think if it’s a home grown team like the 80’s Celtics or the 80’s Lakers, Bulls (maybe the Rodman years puts them over the line). or even the Spurs it doesn’t count.

              Lebron’s Cavs team was a super team IMO. Love was a perennial all-star double double guy.
              Lebron's Cavs wasn't a super team to me. Very borderline at best. Lebron had to carry that bitch by himself across the finish line. That finals series was literally all him. Kevin Love also sucked during that finals series.

              Comment


              • planetmars wrote: View Post

                You have to define what "elite" is though. I don't think you can be too broad in that definition. Kevin Love was absolutely not elite. Neither was Kyrie when the Cavs won. I don't think Kyrie was ever really elite. He wasn't ever an MVP candidate or a type 5-7 player in the league. He made the all-nba second team in 2019. That was his peak there. He's a really good player, but elite and very good should have a pretty sizable gap.

                Wade was a 2010 all-nba first team selection.. so in that sense he was a top 5 player when Lebron joined him.

                I think you need 2 of some of the greatest players in the game on the team at the same time. And by greatest I mean guys that are all-nba first team every other year. Like hall of fame locks. Guys that should carry their own team to a championship on their own. The league usually has 4-5 guys like this every year. Harden doesn't fit that this year. Kyrie doesn't either. George doesn't either.

                This season there were no super teams in my opinion. Mostly because Lebron and Davis were both old and hurt.

                A super team example would be if Giannis went to Dallas to play with Luka. Or Jokic played with KD. Or Embiid played with Curry. Those would be super teams. An out of shape Harden who doesn't give a sh!t anymore is no longer "elite" IMO.
                kevin love was a 26 and 15 player and was absolutely elite when he joined the cavs. and dwayne wade was the second best player in the league when they joined forces.

                lebron just generally makes his teammates worse by reducing them largely to observers, despite his reputation (and his undeniably incredible passing ability). this is true of both the role players and especially of the stars. i said it for awhile and then kevin pelton actually looked into it in detail a few years ago

                Comment


                • Primer wrote: View Post

                  I mean not even Robin. Their team isn't a 2-piece. Keeping the comic book analogy going he's like Cyborg on the Justice League. Cool in spurts but it's really Superman doing all the heavy lifting.

                  Also we saw Wiggins as lead dog and it did not result in a championship. It was a very bad team. Tim W was also all about Jabari Parker too, it was a can't miss draft, so yeah he's still a total buffoon.
                  Still too early eh?
                  And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

                  Comment


                  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post

                    Still too early eh?
                    But why, though? Tim L was arrogant and condescending. Like there was only 1 path to a chip and it was his way. Everybody else was a moron, in his eyes. No reason to cut people like that any slack… ever.

                    Comment


                    • Primer wrote: View Post

                      Lebron's Cavs wasn't a super team to me. Very borderline at best. Lebron had to carry that bitch by himself across the finish line. That finals series was literally all him. Kevin Love also sucked during that finals series.
                      You can't use hindsight though.

                      Garnet/Allen/jackazz Pierce Celtics team was absolutely designed as a super team and everyone freaked out about how unfair that roster was at the time. They finished with a record of 66–16 and posted the best single-season turnaround in NBA history. There's your hint.

                      lebron's Cavs team with Kyrie and Love was absolutely a manufactured super team. People use Love's recency bias to say it wasn't that good a team. But he was an absolute stud at that time and Kyrie was the "next one". Not as manufactured as lebron's Miami team with Wade and Bosh where each colluded to take the same exact salary in order to fit in. Designed to win "not 1 not 2 not 3" .... so glad that didn't exactly work out to that extent.

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                      • Primer wrote: View Post

                        Lebron's Cavs wasn't a super team to me. Very borderline at best. Lebron had to carry that bitch by himself across the finish line. That finals series was literally all him. Kevin Love also sucked during that finals series.
                        If it ultimately works out has nothing to do with whether it was a super team. Love being bad for a series changes nothing.

                        Raps beat a GSW super team with Curry, Durant, Klay and Green. Injuries and regression can happen, still a super team.

                        Comment


                        • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                          If it ultimately works out has nothing to do with whether it was a super team. Love being bad for a series changes nothing.

                          Raps beat a GSW super team with Curry, Durant, Klay and Green. Injuries and regression can happen, still a super team.
                          I just don't view it was a super team. Cleveland drafted both Lebron and Irving. I know Lebron came back but it felt nothing like Celtics or Heat or Warriors to me.

                          They also had to trade a lot to get Love, two former first overall picks in Wiggins and Bennett and Thad Young as well.

                          To each their own though, you can call it a super team if you want, I just don't.

                          Comment


                          • Primer wrote: View Post

                            I just don't view it was a super team. Cleveland drafted both Lebron and Irving. I know Lebron came back but it felt nothing like Celtics or Heat or Warriors to me.

                            They also had to trade a lot to get Love, two former first overall picks in Wiggins and Bennett and Thad Young as well.

                            To each their own though, you can call it a super team if you want, I just don't.
                            Trading alot to get Love is why it's a super team though. If he wasn't that good it wouldn't have taken much to get him. The best in the game returns to CLE to join with former #1 pick and rising star Irving, and they bring in one of the best scoring and rebounding bigs to complete the Trifecta. Having that sort of dynamic with player personnel was sort of a prerequisite for LBJ led teams after his first stint in CLE. He recognized the need for multiple all star level talents around him in order to contend, following the Boston team up. Which also included Rondo, who was super important to that team and an all star level talent at that time. In my mind, it's not necessary to have multiple top 5 or top 10 players on a single team, but one surrounded by multiple all stars should qualify. That Hawks team that had 4 all stars doesn't qualify IMO, as it lacked the superstar top 10 level talent. They probably didn't even have a top 20 player on that team.

                            But that BOS team was most certainly a super team IMO. KG was still super effective on both ends, rondo was a fantastic two way PG, with 2 high level scorers in between, all all star level talents. I'm not sure if there was a top 10 talent there, but if KG wasn't at that point, he wasn't far removed from the distinction.

                            What about those early Durant, Westbrook, harden OKC teams? Were they a superteam? Had they been together long enough to qualify? Or does drafting all the talent somehow discount the distinction?

                            Comment


                            • JawsGT wrote: View Post

                              Trading alot to get Love is why it's a super team though. If he wasn't that good it wouldn't have taken much to get him. The best in the game returns to CLE to join with former #1 pick and rising star Irving, and they bring in one of the best scoring and rebounding bigs to complete the Trifecta. Having that sort of dynamic with player personnel was sort of a prerequisite for LBJ led teams after his first stint in CLE. He recognized the need for multiple all star level talents around him in order to contend, following the Boston team up. Which also included Rondo, who was super important to that team and an all star level talent at that time. In my mind, it's not necessary to have multiple top 5 or top 10 players on a single team, but one surrounded by multiple all stars should qualify. That Hawks team that had 4 all stars doesn't qualify IMO, as it lacked the superstar top 10 level talent. They probably didn't even have a top 20 player on that team.

                              But that BOS team was most certainly a super team IMO. KG was still super effective on both ends, rondo was a fantastic two way PG, with 2 high level scorers in between, all all star level talents. I'm not sure if there was a top 10 talent there, but if KG wasn't at that point, he wasn't far removed from the distinction.

                              What about those early Durant, Westbrook, harden OKC teams? Were they a superteam? Had they been together long enough to qualify? Or does drafting all the talent somehow discount the distinction?
                              Yes, 100% it's not a super team if they were all drafted by that team. That's just a well put together team. The whole Super team term started with the Celtics putting together the Big 3. It means a bunch of stars colluding to all end up on the same team.

                              Comment


                              • Primer wrote: View Post

                                Yes, 100% it's not a super team if they were all drafted by that team. That's just a well put together team. The whole Super team term started with the Celtics putting together the Big 3. It means a bunch of stars colluding to all end up on the same team.
                                Didn't Boston trade for KG and Allen? How can it be colluding if they were traded and didn't sign in free agency?

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