Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Raptors Offseason 2022

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • chris wrote: View Post
    let the record show that i want nothing to do with donovan mitchell re: all that talk a few pages back, even if it only costs GTJ and picks.

    it's real hard to win at a high level with that kind of player (small ball dominant one way player), and he doesn't fit the raptors profile at all. have been saying for years now but i'll take a FVV type at his contract that plays both ends at a B+ to A- level over the mitchell/lillard/beal types who play one end at an A to A+ level and the other at a D of F, especially for that they get paid
    After his rookie season, the Jazz have been averaging 55+ wins with Mitchell as the face of the franchise, in the tougher western conference.... not sure if that's what you mean by high level winning. Even as a rookie, Mitchell led them to the 2nd round... better than what FVV did this year in his first try as co-team leader. Sure, Mitchell is a sub-par defender, but opposing team's exploiting Gobert with 5-out is one of the main reason they've been below expectations in the playoffs.

    Comment


    • GOLDBLUM wrote: View Post

      Ok, now that this Ayton stuff is figured out…

      Your post above saying the Raps can beat this assumes that we’re willing to give the same pick equity as Phoenix, which… I don’t personally predict will likely end up being the case.

      I have a really tough time seeing Masai/Bobby giving up 4 picks and 3 swaps… just doesn’t seem like a superb situation to put the franchise in for a 34 year old KD who’ll be on the decline in the near future. We’ve got a lot going for us as is… and I’m not sure the pressure is there for that…

      Meanwhile, I think Phoenix on the other hand isn’t as well managed, and will be more susceptible to being squeezed for every pick they’ve got.

      If I’m Phoenix, at this stage, now that Ayton is back… I’m thinking, ok fine. Take Bridges, Johnson, one of Crowder or Lamet, and all the picks we can give you. Put CP3, Book, Ayton with KD, and hope it pushes you over the top. Their squad has been close enough to getting over the hump, (see Demar and Kyle) and hasn’t gotten it done. They’re in a position where they need to take a huge swing like this.

      I’m just not sure, with where we’re at in our cycle, that we need to do this trade to the same degree, and as such, I’m not convinced we rise up to meet the insane boatload of picks…

      I feel like that could end up being the difference.
      Even if the Raptors matched the hypothetical 4 picks + 3 swaps that Phoenix would throw in (and I agree, I don't think they would).. I might still prefer the Phoenix package. Arguably OG+Gary is a better package. That's a bit of splitting hairs since Bridges is a world class defender, and Cam vs Gary is closer than what a lot people think. But that pick package Phoenix offers would be better than Toronto's.

      KD and CP are going to fall off a cliff sooner than later. Those picks in 2026+ may be super sweet. The Raptors are collectively still pretty young and so they may have a stronger team in 2026 and beyond. Plus the Suns were hot garbage before Paul got there. And the Raptors have been consistently good since Masai got here. I wouldn't want the Raptors picks since I'd be betting against Masai.

      Comment


      • planetmars wrote: View Post

        Even if the Raptors matched the hypothetical 4 picks + 3 swaps that Phoenix would throw in (and I agree, I don't think they would).. I might still prefer the Phoenix package. Arguably OG+Gary is a better package. That's a bit of splitting hairs since Bridges is a world class defender, and Cam vs Gary is closer than what a lot people think. But that pick package Phoenix offers would be better than Toronto's.

        KD and CP are going to fall off a cliff sooner than later. Those picks in 2026+ may be super sweet. The Raptors are collectively still pretty young and so they may have a stronger team in 2026 and beyond. Plus the Suns were hot garbage before Paul got there. And the Raptors have been consistently good since Masai got here. I wouldn't want the Raptors picks since I'd be betting against Masai.
        the thing is you still have chips to add to the table. Flynn for example if you are at the point of splitting hairs (CP3 is closer to that cliff by a long shot than KD is). We can load manage KD on this team they cannot load manage KD on the suns with their remaining team. If you really want you can toss in Precious if you MUST... but you decrease the picks.. again I ignore the whole idea of pick swaps. They don't shift things at all when you get a player of this caliber the only time they MAY matter is in 7 years time so that is the only pick swap that really truly matters or in 4-5 years time.. the early pick swaps will likely not even convey.

        Comment


        • golden wrote: View Post

          After his rookie season, the Jazz have been averaging 55+ wins with Mitchell as the face of the franchise, in the tougher western conference.... not sure if that's what you mean by high level winning. Even as a rookie, Mitchell led them to the 2nd round... better than what FVV did this year in his first try as co-team leader. Sure, Mitchell is a sub-par defender, but opposing team's exploiting Gobert with 5-out is one of the main reason they've been below expectations in the playoffs.
          Mitchell would be amazing in Toronto.

          Comment


          • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

            the thing is you still have chips to add to the table. Flynn for example if you are at the point of splitting hairs (CP3 is closer to that cliff by a long shot than KD is). We can load manage KD on this team they cannot load manage KD on the suns with their remaining team. If you really want you can toss in Precious if you MUST... but you decrease the picks.. again I ignore the whole idea of pick swaps. They don't shift things at all when you get a player of this caliber the only time they MAY matter is in 7 years time so that is the only pick swap that really truly matters or in 4-5 years time.. the early pick swaps will likely not even convey.
            Don't look at it from Phoenix's point of view.. look at it from Brooklyn's. Phoenix not load managing KD is on them.. Brooklyn doesn't care.

            What Brooklyn cares about is getting the best deal possible.

            Flynn is at best a neutral asset, but likely a negative one at this point, not a guy that fudges anything. Precious is a great asset, but why is Masai including him if he wants to win? Who's our center? Khem again?

            Brooklyn will likely prefer Phoenix's draft picks over Toronto's.. because CP and KD are old. So those picks in the back end could look great. Kind of like what Boston's picks were like when they traded old man KG and Pierce to Brooklyn. Those picks helped them get Tatum and Brown.

            Raptors on the other hand are younger and have a history (under Masai) of winning. So the Raptor picks in the back years may look meh.. like in the 20's, likely not in the lottery.

            I take Phoenix's picks over Toronto's if I was Brooklyn. And that's the point I'm trying to make.

            Comment


            • One thing we aren't talking about is Phoenix's owner not wanting to pay the tax. With Ayton's new contract, next year will be the first year in a long time ( I think like almost 2 decades) the Suns are paying the tax.

              The owner stated that paying the tax is part of the business, but if they brought on KD, that tax bill goes crazy high! He might be okay with paying a little bit, but when he has historically not wanted to pay it, I don't see him paying 9 figures worth of luxury tax.

              I agree that if phoenix opens up the cupboard on all their picks, that is a better package than us. But do they?
              Last edited by Shredder; Fri Jul 15, 2022, 11:24 AM.

              Comment


              • Shredder wrote: View Post
                One thing we aren't talking about is Phoenix's owner not wanting to pay the tax. With Ayton's new contract, next year will be the first year in a long time ( I think like almost 2 decades) the Suns are paying the tax.

                The woner stated that paying the tax is part of the business, but if they brought on KD, that tax bill goes crazy high! He might be okay with paying a little bit, but when he has historically not wanted to pay it, I don't see him paying 9 figures worth of luxury tax.

                I agree that if phoenix opens up the cupboard on all their picks, that is a better package than us. But do they?
                I believe I read somewhere that with the Ayton match they are above the tax by around $15M. I could see them trying to move Saric to some team (like San Antonio) so it can help a bit. But they would have to give up a pick to do that.. a pick that I'm sure Brooklyn would want.

                Sarver has been known to be very, very cheap. Let's see what happens.



                Comment


                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  Mitchell would be amazing in Toronto.
                  Yup, KD is a different beast, but Mitchell would fit the timeline much better and won't cost us as many core pieces. Also would provide us some much needed guard help.

                  But Toronto isn't Minnesota, so I don't think Utah views our picks as being all that valuable over the next 10 years.

                  Comment


                  • planetmars wrote: View Post

                    Even if the Raptors matched the hypothetical 4 picks + 3 swaps that Phoenix would throw in (and I agree, I don't think they would).. I might still prefer the Phoenix package. Arguably OG+Gary is a better package. That's a bit of splitting hairs since Bridges is a world class defender, and Cam vs Gary is closer than what a lot people think. But that pick package Phoenix offers would be better than Toronto's.

                    KD and CP are going to fall off a cliff sooner than later. Those picks in 2026+ may be super sweet. The Raptors are collectively still pretty young and so they may have a stronger team in 2026 and beyond. Plus the Suns were hot garbage before Paul got there. And the Raptors have been consistently good since Masai got here. I wouldn't want the Raptors picks since I'd be betting against Masai.
                    I think we are a bit too focused on the OG and Gary duo being the best player package the Raps would put together. We don't know that. All we have heard is that Barnes is off the table, which makes sense. What I haven't heard is that Pascal or Fred are off the table.

                    Comment


                    • slaw wrote: View Post

                      Mitchell would be amazing in Toronto.
                      Raptors have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to elite defenders. If Nurse can't maximize a guy like Mitchell, then what are we doing here anyway? Sure, every coach and every team wants 2-way, switch everything, elite defenders, who can shoot, playmake & create on offense... but those guys are all max players.

                      Mitchell also doesn't shrink on offense in the playoffs (unlike most Raptors not named Kawhi, historically). He actually elevates his game, which is surprising for a guy his size. I believe he is top 10 ALL-TIME in playoff scoring average. On efficient percentages. All-Time.

                      Comment


                      • slaw wrote: View Post

                        I think we are a bit too focused on the OG and Gary duo being the best player package the Raps would put together. We don't know that. All we have heard is that Barnes is off the table, which makes sense. What I haven't heard is that Pascal or Fred are off the table.
                        I do think a Fred+OG package is harder to beat, but Fred will be a UFA. Cam is an RFA.

                        But at some point you have to try to build a contender as well.. so if we're trading Pascal for example, then can we win with KD and a bunch of non-stars (no offense to Fred)? KD couldn't do that with the Nets last year.

                        Pascal may be available, but I'd be surprised if he was.

                        Comment


                        • I think you have to keep Pascal if you get KD. He is an All NBA player. Now imagine if he gets the freedom to play his game with having to worry less about getting double teamed.

                          Comment


                          • golden wrote: View Post

                            Raptors have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to elite defenders. If Nurse can't maximize a guy like Mitchell, then what are we doing here anyway? Sure, every coach and every team wants 2-way, switch everything, elite defenders, who can shoot, playmake & create on offense... but those guys are all max players.

                            Mitchell also doesn't shrink on offense in the playoffs (unlike most Raptors not named Kawhi, historically). He actually elevates his game, which is surprising for a guy his size. I believe he is top 10 ALL-TIME in playoff scoring average. On efficient percentages. All-Time.
                            Mitchell would be even better in Toronto with guys like Barnes and Siakam who would take a lot of pressure off.

                            Comment


                            • A.I wrote: View Post
                              I think you have to keep Pascal if you get KD. He is an All NBA player. Now imagine if he gets the freedom to play his game with having to worry less about getting double teamed.
                              I was going to say you don't have to imagine it, you just have to go back to the 2019 season when we had Kawhi. However, Pascal has become a Much, Much, better player since then. You give him KD or Mitchell and he's going to elevate his game a whole new level we haven't seen from him before.

                              Comment


                              • Utah reportedly asked the Knicks for Quigley, Grimes, and Toppin along with 6 first round picks for Mitchell (Knicks have 11 first round picks in the next 7 years, 8 of which can be traded)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X