Raptors Offseason 2022

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don't believe coaching matters all that much in the NBA. I wouldn't be to surprised if this guy can lead the Celtics to the finals again. He was their assistant right? The other assistants are still the same. The team has brought in Brogdon as the only new face I believe (since Gallo is basically done for the year already), and he's a vet too.

No coaching experiencing worked out for Tye Lue who won a championship with the Cavs.

coaching definitely matters... in any nba locker room you have a bunch of egos to manage at the very least so even if the person isn't an x's and o's kind of person you need to have someone who is capable of galvanizing everyone for the greater good and able to deliver those messages. It is the micro management of the roster as well within game or even between games.. how to adjust... if no coach existed do you really think the players would do that?? there is a chance very big chance if there was no coach and things get tough that players may be more willing to play selfishly just purely because of incentives and behavior.



keep in mind gallo is done for the year... but also they just lost robert williams to start the season as well with the announcement of surgery.... not saying this tanks there season but all these "little" things are adding up and making things difficult.

[slaw]

I don't believe coaching matters all that much in the NBA.

[TrueTorontoFan]

lol the other thing with planets suggestion that it doesn't matter... we have had this conversation before on this forum we talked about nurse vs casey debate regarding our chip.

[planetmars]

coaching definitely matters... in any nba locker room you have a bunch of egos to manage at the very least so even if the person isn't an x's and o's kind of person you need to have someone who is capable of galvanizing everyone for the greater good and able to deliver those messages. It is the micro management of the roster as well within game or even between games.. how to adjust... if no coach existed do you really think the players would do that?? there is a chance very big chance if there was no coach and things get tough that players may be more willing to play selfishly just purely because of incentives and behavior.



keep in mind gallo is done for the year... but also they just lost robert williams to start the season as well with the announcement of surgery.... not saying this tanks there season but all these "little" things are adding up and making things difficult.

I think talent trumps coaching every time. Vogel won a championship and was fired the next year. That kind of stuff happens a lot. What turns a good coach into a great coach is winning.. and that's it. Nurse is a great coach because he won a championship.

If he lost in the 2nd round against Philly, then again against Boston the following year... then was in the lottery in his 3rd year.. he'd look like any other retread. But he won, and so everyone thinks he's elite.


A coach can help certain players for sure. But if you are talented that talent will come through anyway. The x's and o's stuff is the same every where. Assistants are the ones that usually can come up with good plays here and there. They are the ones in working one on one with players, helping them become better. Didn't Walton go on a huge run when Kerr hurt his back that one year?

The Celtics have loads of vets.. they aren't a young team. Horford, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Brogdon, White, etc.. all have playoff experience. They know how to win when it matters. A bad coach isn't going to hold them back. They even got rid of a lot of their youth in that Brogdon trade. Losing Wiliams would have been a challenge for Udoka too. They will find someone to fill that gap until he's back.

But if the Celtics were young and didn't have that experience then no coach would help them. Even Udoka would have failed them.

[planetmars]

He was coaching the Bulls.. like that team sucked on paper anyway. Have him coach a team with a super star, and I bet they'd look okay.

[planetmars]

lol the other thing with planets suggestion that it doesn't matter... we have had this conversation before on this forum we talked about nurse vs casey debate regarding our chip.

Casey never had Kawhi or Gasol unfortunately. He did a heck of a job with DeMar and Kyle.. even having the best record in the East that one year. I didn't like Casey for a lot of reasons, but then realized his roster was pretty flawed. And then forgave him.

[slaw]

lol the other thing with planets suggestion that it doesn't matter... we have had this conversation before on this forum we talked about nurse vs casey debate regarding our chip.

Coaching can matter.... Like any other job most NBA coaches are in the middle and likely don't move the needle that much one way or another. But 5-10% of coaches can, for better or worse, make a difference. Trick is finding one of those few guys and finding him when you've got the right roster as well. Tough formula to find.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Casey never had Kawhi or Gasol unfortunately. He did a heck of a job with DeMar and Kyle.. even having the best record in the East that one year. I didn't like Casey for a lot of reasons, but then realized his roster was pretty flawed. And then forgave him.

the roster was flawed but that doesn't mean coaching doesn't matter

[golden]

Casey never had Kawhi or Gasol unfortunately. He did a heck of a job with DeMar and Kyle.. even having the best record in the East that one year. I didn't like Casey for a lot of reasons, but then realized his roster was pretty flawed. And then forgave him.

The 2019 championship team may have had the deepest roster of defensive talent in NBA history.

I mean you replaced the 2 main guys Casey had issues with on defense: JV and DeMar... with Gasol (DPOY) and Kawhi (DPOY).

And you added Danny Green (former all-defense). And you have 5 other guys who have received all-defense accolades or votes (FVV, OG, Siakam, Lowry, Ibaka).

That's 8 legit all-defense players, who also are good to elite 2-way players on offense. In hindsight: Wowzers.

That roster was Casey's defensive wet dream.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I think talent trumps coaching every time. Vogel won a championship and was fired the next year. That kind of stuff happens a lot. What turns a good coach into a great coach is winning.. and that's it. Nurse is a great coach because he won a championship.

If he lost in the 2nd round against Philly, then again against Boston the following year... then was in the lottery in his 3rd year.. he'd look like any other retread. But he won, and so everyone thinks he's elite.


A coach can help certain players for sure. But if you are talented that talent will come through anyway. The x's and o's stuff is the same every where. Assistants are the ones that usually can come up with good plays here and there. They are the ones in working one on one with players, helping them become better. Didn't Walton go on a huge run when Kerr hurt his back that one year?

The Celtics have loads of vets.. they aren't a young team. Horford, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Brogdon, White, etc.. all have playoff experience. They know how to win when it matters. A bad coach isn't going to hold them back. They even got rid of a lot of their youth in that Brogdon trade. Losing Wiliams would have been a challenge for Udoka too. They will find someone to fill that gap until he's back.

But if the Celtics were young and didn't have that experience then no coach would help them. Even Udoka would have failed them.

no one is saying coaching trumps talent... but a good coach can maximize talent to reach their 90th percentile... where as a bad coach has a tougher time getting there... meaning if you have talent that is... close between two teams... but one team hasa talent edge...well the better coach will likely win in a 7 game series.

Within a season.. coaching doesn't matter quite as much because yes if you have enough talent and dpeth you can talent your way to it... but also it goes beyond talent ... gotta give credit to line ups and roster construction (gm+coaching)..... the lakers are on paper way more talented than say the raptors or a lot of western conference teams but it was there poor roster management and roster construction that got them where they are.



If you still are not sure what I mean lebron works best when surrounded by shooters.

[TrueTorontoFan]

The 2019 championship team may have had the deepest roster of defensive talent in NBA history.

I mean you replaced the 2 main guys Casey had issues with on defense: JV and DeMar... with Gasol (DPOY) and Kawhi (DPOY).

And you added Danny Green (former all-defense). And you have 5 other guys who have received all-defense accolades or votes (FVV, OG, Siakam, Lowry, Ibaka).

That's 8 legit all-defense players, who also are good to elite 2-way players on offense. In hindsight: Wowzers.

That roster was Casey's defensive wet dream.

yeah of course... but also keep in mind nurse was also familiar with the roster even though he was a 1st year NBA head coach he was our assistant.

[planetmars]

the roster was flawed but that doesn't mean coaching doesn't matter

Casey never had a chance to coach that team. How do you know he would fail? It's an impossible question to answer. I think he would have had success because he had an elite team. Nurse got lucky.

Again Casey was able to lead the East in the regular season where his best players were Kyle and DeMar. He didn't have a super star, but still had the most wins in the East that one year.

[planetmars]

no one is saying coaching trumps talent... but a good coach can maximize talent to reach their 90th percentile... where as a bad coach has a tougher time getting there... meaning if you have talent that is... close between two teams... but one team hasa talent edge...well the better coach will likely win in a 7 game series.

Within a season.. coaching doesn't matter quite as much because yes if you have enough talent and dpeth you can talent your way to it... but also it goes beyond talent ... gotta give credit to line ups and roster construction (gm+coaching)..... the lakers are on paper way more talented than say the raptors or a lot of western conference teams but it was there poor roster management and roster construction that got them where they are.



If you still are not sure what I mean lebron works best when surrounded by shooters.

I think the maximizing talent stuff is over played. You can't really prove it.. your just coming up with random numbers.

And bringing in shooters for Lebron is also talent.. that's on the GM and front office... not the coach. If a coach doesn't have the right tools he'll fail. If he does, he'll succeed. That's how simple the equation is.

Vogel won a championship but he had the right tools.. and old team with super stars that didn't have to travel much because of the bubble situation. So he had a healthy team. Once his team started getting hurt, he struggled. It got harder when he lost some of his talented pieces like Caruso.

Walton lead his team to a 24-0 start while Kerr was having surgery. He goes on to Sacramento with inferior players and struggles.

Casey lost to the Cavs because the Cavs had better talent (ie, Lebron). If Casey had Kawhi that season, I think he would have been in the finals instead.

Doc fricken Rivers has a championship ring.. you know why? He had a pretty good roster full of stars.

[planetmars]

The 2019 championship team may have had the deepest roster of defensive talent in NBA history.

I mean you replaced the 2 main guys Casey had issues with on defense: JV and DeMar... with Gasol (DPOY) and Kawhi (DPOY).

And you added Danny Green (former all-defense). And you have 5 other guys who have received all-defense accolades or votes (FVV, OG, Siakam, Lowry, Ibaka).

That's 8 legit all-defense players, who also are good to elite 2-way players on offense. In hindsight: Wowzers.

That roster was Casey's defensive wet dream.

Yup.. Casey never got to work with a ferrari. Still did a pretty decent job though given what he had to work with.

[LJ2]

This could create a distraction but the Celtics have a lot of vets and are pretty talented. I had them around 3rd or 4th in the East, and that doesn't really change for me with this Udoka stuff.

A lot of time it's the vets that are the problem. They don't want to listen to a young and inexperienced coach that are telling them something they don't like, they want and need a guy they respect. Udoka came into that job with a lot of respect on his name. Can you imagine what it's going to be like when this new guy is trying to tell Marcus Smart to get his sh!t together? LOL

Anyways there's just a lot of ways the coaching change can impact the team this season.