Raptors Offseason 2022

[Hotshot]

OG seems underrated by some Raptors fans. When ever he was out, The Raptors defensive identity went to shit.

You can't almost get a player like an OG that check marks so many boxes from the kind of player you want. Once you have him, you hold onto him as long as possible unless there is a deal out there that the will blow your socks right off.

If you ask me to name the 3 Raptor players who are the most untouchable players on this team I would say they are Siakam, Barnes & OG.

[The Great One]

OG seems underrated by some Raptors fans. When ever he was out, The Raptors defensive identity went to shit.

You can't almost get a player like an OG that check marks so many boxes from the kind of player you want. Once you have him, you hold onto him as long as possible unless there is a deal out there that the will blow your socks right off.

If you ask me to name the 3 Raptor players who are the most untouchable players on this team I would say they are Siakam, Barnes & OG.

Because people here have short memories. OG is a huge part of what they do bec he's their best defender. Remember their 8 game winning streak this past season? he was a huge part of that. He was guarding the teams best players in crunch time. Butler, Trae Young, Hunter(remember that game?).

I'm not saying he's untouchable but if they trade him then they better get a haul.

[bertarapsfan]

Is there any proof that OG really is an elite defender? It doesn’t show up in any of the advanced metrics that are specifically designed to uncover that kind of stuff. Versatility might be the closest thing.

Watch him guard Tatum one night, jokic the next then harden a couple days later. All one on one and tell me he isn't elite

[TrueTorontoFan]

OG seems underrated by some Raptors fans. When ever he was out, The Raptors defensive identity went to shit.

You can't almost get a player like an OG that check marks so many boxes from the kind of player you want. Once you have him, you hold onto him as long as possible unless there is a deal out there that the will blow your socks right off.

If you ask me to name the 3 Raptor players who are the most untouchable players on this team I would say they are Siakam, Barnes & OG.

at the end of the day the second you trade OG you are trying to find another OG...

[TrueTorontoFan]

Is there any proof that OG really is an elite defender? It doesn’t show up in any of the advanced metrics that are specifically designed to uncover that kind of stuff. Versatility might be the closest thing.

Few interesting stats for you... deflections 83rd percentile.

Defensive turn overs 97th percentile

Versatility on the defensive end is 93rd percentile.


yeah saying he is good is a massive understatement.

[golden]

Few interesting stats for you... deflections 83rd percentile.

Defensive turn overs 97th percentile

Versatility on the defensive end is 93rd percentile.


yeah saying he is good is a massive understatement.

How does Trent rank in deflections & turnovers? Those stats could be related to the gambling, aggressive style that Nurse wants to play. Both OG and Trent often get caught out of position after an unsuccessful steal attempt or excessive ball pressure.

[TrueTorontoFan]

How does Trent rank in deflections & turnovers? Those stats could be related to the gambling, aggressive style that Nurse wants to play. Both OG and Trent often get caught out of position after an unsuccessful steal attempt or excessive ball pressure.

OG doesn't get caught out of position very often, to be honest.

Gary trent ranks in the 94 percentile in deflections but if you look at his overall crafted defensive plus minus he ranks quite low because (26th percentile). 78th percentile in adjusted defensive turn overs


OG by comparison ranks in the 97th percentile for defensive turn overs. 83rd percentile for deflections.

OG is just a much better defender. Usually though he isn't getting beat by his man and his recovery is good.

[TrueTorontoFan]

OG seems underrated by some Raptors fans. When ever he was out, The Raptors defensive identity went to shit.

You can't almost get a player like an OG that check marks so many boxes from the kind of player you want. Once you have him, you hold onto him as long as possible unless there is a deal out there that the will blow your socks right off.

If you ask me to name the 3 Raptor players who are the most untouchable players on this team I would say they are Siakam, Barnes & OG.

to be fair their defensive identity didn't come together until January onward

[blackjitsu]

How does Trent rank in deflections & turnovers? Those stats could be related to the gambling, aggressive style that Nurse wants to play. Both OG and Trent often get caught out of position after an unsuccessful steal attempt or excessive ball pressure.

OG plays nothing like GTJ.

Here's a basic breakdown of his defense from the bubble season (I think)

Here is how that all came together this season

And this was midseason

I would never say that a player shouldn't be traded, BUT, people need to understand how valuable a player is before talking about trading them.

OG is widely considered a top tier defender at the most valuable position in the league. He does that while averaging high double digits in points. He's one of the Raps few consistent 3pt shooters.

The majority of the suggested trades don't respect his value as a player. You don't trade players for the sake of trading players. This isn't an office. Trading players isn't busy work to appease your boss. If you think he needs to go, or see this as an opportunity, please let us know how you replace what OG does?

Someone suggested Anfernee Simons. Simons is only 6-3. He is a tiny SG. You get back a lot of the offense, but he needs the ball in his hand in a way OG doesn't. You want to take the ball out of Scottie and Pascal's hands for Anfernee Simons? Also, you lose a ton in defense.

I don't know, the Blazers and Jazz don't really have any players that would make me give up an inexpensive, sharp shooting defender who can guard 3 or 4 positions. This draft doesn't impress me either. If you see it, you see it. I just think GM's are starting rumors because they can force other execs to pay more for their players if they say the Raps are interested. And the Raps front office doesn't leak.

[TrueTorontoFan]

OG plays nothing like GTJ.

Here's a basic breakdown of his defense from the bubble season (I think)

Here is how that all came together this season

And this was midseason

I would never say that a player shouldn't be traded, BUT, people need to understand how valuable a player is before talking about trading them.

OG is widely considered a top tier defender at the most valuable position in the league. He does that while averaging high double digits in points. He's one of the Raps few consistent 3pt shooters.

The majority of the suggested trades don't respect his value as a player. You don't trade players for the sake of trading players. This isn't an office. Trading players isn't busy work to appease your boss. If you think he needs to go, or see this as an opportunity, please let us know how you replace what OG does?

Someone suggested Anfernee Simons. Simons is only 6-3. He is a tiny SG. You get back a lot of the offense, but he needs the ball in his hand in a way OG doesn't. You want to take the ball out of Scottie and Pascal's hands for Anfernee Simons? Also, you lose a ton in defense.

I don't know, the Blazers and Jazz don't really have any players that would make me give up an inexpensive, sharp shooting defender who can guard 3 or 4 positions. This draft doesn't impress me either. If you see it, you see it. I just think GM's are starting rumors because they can force other execs to pay more for their players if they say the Raps are interested. And the Raps front office doesn't leak.

I tried to explain it with stats but this does a ton more.

[golden]

OG plays nothing like GTJ.

Here's a basic breakdown of his defense from the bubble season (I think)

Here is how that all came together this season

And this was midseason

I would never say that a player shouldn't be traded, BUT, people need to understand how valuable a player is before talking about trading them.

OG is widely considered a top tier defender at the most valuable position in the league. He does that while averaging high double digits in points. He's one of the Raps few consistent 3pt shooters.

The majority of the suggested trades don't respect his value as a player. You don't trade players for the sake of trading players. This isn't an office. Trading players isn't busy work to appease your boss. If you think he needs to go, or see this as an opportunity, please let us know how you replace what OG does?

Someone suggested Anfernee Simons. Simons is only 6-3. He is a tiny SG. You get back a lot of the offense, but he needs the ball in his hand in a way OG doesn't. You want to take the ball out of Scottie and Pascal's hands for Anfernee Simons? Also, you lose a ton in defense.

I don't know, the Blazers and Jazz don't really have any players that would make me give up an inexpensive, sharp shooting defender who can guard 3 or 4 positions. This draft doesn't impress me either. If you see it, you see it. I just think GM's are starting rumors because they can force other execs to pay more for their players if they say the Raps are interested. And the Raps front office doesn't leak.

Relax, man. I like OG. But you can find heavily edited mix-tapes of highlights for any player.

My main point is that there seems to be a dis-connect between calling OG elite and the defensive impact stats (PIPM, LEBRON, EPM, 538 RAPTOR etc..) that typically favor the usual suspects, like: Draymond, Thybulle, RoCo, Mobley, Gobert, etc... Heck, even Herbert Jones and Mobley are entering the "elite" conversation.

The arguments I'm hearing in favor of OG being defensively elite are: (1) the eye test, (2) versatility, (3) deflections and (4) turnovers generated. #2 is undeniable and great, but how effective is OG at actually stopping Jokic? Even then, Scottie & Boucher rank above OG and Pascal ranks the same, so OG's defensive versatility isn't even that impressive relative to his own teammates. The last 2 factors (turnovers, deflections) could be attributed to our aggressive system.

I'm just asking the question: why doesn't OG's impact show up consistently in the same stats the favor other players of his ilk? One possible explanation could be that our aggressive system puts him out of position and doesn't allow him to showcase his natural defensive abilities. Also, gambling for steals and turnovers might be a wash if you're also giving up blow-bys.

[DanH]

Relax, man. I like OG. But you can find heavily edited mix-tapes of highlights for any player.

My main point is that there seems to be a dis-connect between calling OG elite and the defensive impact stats (PIPM, LEBRON, EPM, 538 RAPTOR etc..) that typically favor the usual suspects, like: Draymond, Thybulle, RoCo, Mobley, Gobert, etc... Heck, even Herbert Jones and Mobley are entering the "elite" conversation.

The arguments I'm hearing in favor of OG being defensively elite are: (1) the eye test, (2) versatility, (3) deflections and (4) turnovers generated. #2 is undeniable and great, but how effective is OG at actually stopping Jokic? Even then, Scottie & Boucher rank above OG and Pascal ranks the same, so OG's defensive versatility isn't even that impressive relative to his own teammates. The last 2 factors (turnovers, deflections) could be attributed to our aggressive system.

I'm just asking the question: why doesn't OG's impact show up consistently in the same stats the favor other players of his ilk? One possible explanation could be that our aggressive system puts him out of position and doesn't allow him to showcase his natural defensive abilities. Also, gambling for steals and turnovers might be a wash if you're also giving up blow-bys.

It's a question worth asking. My argument would be that the way the Raptors use OG, they leverage his ability to cover off their entire system across 5 positions to its maximum, but in doing so leave his ability to individually impact the defence limited. They'll occasionally come up to a matchup where they need him to focus on one player and then you get these ridiculous matchup numbers where he shuts down an opposing star. In many matchups the Raptors would rather play switchy and try to take away the opposing offence's actions, letting them get a relative mismatch away from OG because the other guys in the lineup are also quite good, but on the nights where they can't get away with that he really shines.

That shows up in the playoffs when they stop playing generically and try to maintain best defensive matchups and its no surprise he had an absolutely wild on/off defensive impact compared to the rest of the starters against Philly this year (defence was 7 points better with OG on the court than without him, while every other starter - besides Khem - ranged from the defence being 4 points worse to 14 points worse when they were on the court). Whole thing just falls apart without him especially against the opponents where his defence matters the most.

[Primer]

It's a question worth asking. My argument would be that the way the Raptors use OG, they leverage his ability to cover off their entire system across 5 positions to its maximum, but in doing so leave his ability to individually impact the defence limited. They'll occasionally come up to a matchup where they need him to focus on one player and then you get these ridiculous matchup numbers where he shuts down an opposing star. In many matchups the Raptors would rather play switchy and try to take away the opposing offence's actions, letting them get a relative mismatch away from OG because the other guys in the lineup are also quite good, but on the nights where they can't get away with that he really shines.

That shows up in the playoffs when they stop playing generically and try to maintain best defensive matchups and its no surprise he had an absolutely wild on/off defensive impact compared to the rest of the starters against Philly this year (defence was 7 points better with OG on the court than without him, while every other starter - besides Khem - ranged from the defence being 4 points worse to 14 points worse when they were on the court). Whole thing just falls apart without him especially against the opponents where his defence matters the most.

Thank you. This is why you have to watch the games and not just look at the stats. Stats are a tool but not that useful if you're not viewing them in context of the games you're watching. If all you look at is box scores and advanced stats you don't have a great idea of how good a player is or what they do. So much does not show up in a stat line.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Relax, man. I like OG. But you can find heavily edited mix-tapes of highlights for any player.

My main point is that there seems to be a dis-connect between calling OG elite and the defensive impact stats (PIPM, LEBRON, EPM, 538 RAPTOR etc..) that typically favor the usual suspects, like: Draymond, Thybulle, RoCo, Mobley, Gobert, etc... Heck, even Herbert Jones and Mobley are entering the "elite" conversation.

The arguments I'm hearing in favor of OG being defensively elite are: (1) the eye test, (2) versatility, (3) deflections and (4) turnovers generated. #2 is undeniable and great, but how effective is OG at actually stopping Jokic? Even then, Scottie & Boucher rank above OG and Pascal ranks the same, so OG's defensive versatility isn't even that impressive relative to his own teammates. The last 2 factors (turnovers, deflections) could be attributed to our aggressive system.

I'm just asking the question: why doesn't OG's impact show up consistently in the same stats the favor other players of his ilk? One possible explanation could be that our aggressive system puts him out of position and doesn't allow him to showcase his natural defensive abilities. Also, gambling for steals and turnovers might be a wash if you're also giving up blow-bys.

I gave you impact stats though.


#4 is very important.

Again you are mentioning that he is gambling for steals but he typicall doesn't gamble in the same way GTJ does and doesn't get blown by for that reason.

here is an article that answers the jokic question:
https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/...p1hin4y1p4x5bi






Here is the key "Anunoby was able to limit the two-time All-Star to two points (0-2 FG, 2-2 FT) in the six minutes they were matched up together, an incredible feat considering Anunoby was giving up five inches and 52 pounds."


Let's do a more direct comparison looking at their defensive field goal percentage:

GTJ:
OVERALL: 49.7% 3pointers: 38.5% 2pointers: 57.7%. Within 6 feet:66.9%

OG:
OVERALL: 44.0% 3pointers: 33.0% 2pointers: 51.3%. Within 6 feet:62.5%

[golden]

Thank you. This is why you have to watch the games and not just look at the stats. Stats are a tool but not that useful if you're not viewing them in context of the games you're watching. If all you look at is box scores and advanced stats you don't have a great idea of how good a player is or what they do. So much does not show up in a stat line.

Watching actual games? WTF, why? Stats and mix-tapes are enough for me. You might have seen me posting in game threads, but now I’ve been exposed as a bot. You got me.