Raptors Offseason 2022

[DanH]

Depends on the team making the max offer.

If the team making the max offer to Ayton has cap room (e.g. Pistons) then, yes, the Suns have zero leverage. The problem for Ayton is: who wants to go to the Pistons or live in Detroit?

If it's a team like the Raps, then we'd need to work with the Suns or a 3rd team that can absorb salaries to clear cap. Then the Suns have some leverage.

Right, but assuming a Detroit offer, for example, is on the table, Ayton can still threaten to just sign the deal and force the Suns to match or lose him for nothing (neither of which they want to do). He can always force his way out of Detroit if need be. And once he can threaten any direct signing deal, the Suns lose a lot of leverage in SnT talks. At that point it's... do you take the middling offer from the Raps (assuming Ayton wants to come here, of course) or risk the all-or-nothing scenario where he just signs an offer sheet somewhere? Some other team having a better offer is meaningless if Ayton doesn't want to sign with them.

[Limited Upside]

I said that they intend on shopping gtj and will include fvv if it means getting a guy like Mitchell back.

I do think we do have our point guard because that is what you focused on in your initial response was that FVV is a point guard and I responded by saying scottie is the point guard. you then said he hasn't shown the skills that make you confident.. I am paraphrasing but yeah and suggested that Barnes is not a potential primary ball handler.


I agree with the second paragraph

Yeah, that's a lot of paraphrasing. That's not really what you said, nor what I said. That's cool, though, it's not worth arguing about. Carry on.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Yeah, that's a lot of paraphrasing. That's not really what you said, nor what I said. That's cool, though, it's not worth arguing about. Carry on.

well I did say gtj was the main person I do believe I've repeated that point again and again and again plus he wasn't mentioned. He is the one who is primed to go if that is what you are alluding to butu yeah.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Right, but assuming a Detroit offer, for example, is on the table, Ayton can still threaten to just sign the deal and force the Suns to match or lose him for nothing (neither of which they want to do). He can always force his way out of Detroit if need be. And once he can threaten any direct signing deal, the Suns lose a lot of leverage in SnT talks. At that point it's... do you take the middling offer from the Raps (assuming Ayton wants to come here, of course) or risk the all-or-nothing scenario where he just signs an offer sheet somewhere? Some other team having a better offer is meaningless if Ayton doesn't want to sign with them.

so do you not feel like a middling offer is fair for ayton (gtj and filler) given the leverage the suns have? Also out of the middling offers do you feel like the raptors have the best.

[DanH]

so do you not feel like a middling offer is fair for ayton (gtj and filler) given the leverage the suns have? Also out of the middling offers do you feel like the raptors have the best.

Again, my point is the number of offers and how good they are is irrelevant. What matters is a) does Ayton have leverage (almost certainly yes), and if he does, b) where does he want to go? And then the offer from the team he actually wants to go to is weighed against just getting nothing or matching and keeping Ayton at the max. Comparing offers in a SnT makes little sense unless there is no direct signing opportunity.

[planetmars]

Ayton's agent is Bill Duffy. He also represents Scottie and Dragic. I thought the Raptors handled the Dragic situation well. They basically paid him to workout in Miami. And he got his full buyout (he didn't lose a penny off his contract).

That can always help with negotiations, in case we really are interested in him. I personally would rather pass. I don't think Ayton is all that great. You can get a drop coverage big for far cheaper.

[DanH]

Ayton's agent is Bill Duffy. He also represents Scottie and Dragic. I thought the Raptors handled the Dragic situation well. They basically paid him to workout in Miami. And he got his full buyout (he didn't lose a penny off his contract).

That can always help with negotiations, in case we really are interested in him. I personally would rather pass. I don't think Ayton is all that great. You can get a drop coverage big for far cheaper.

Ayton may have some unlocked potential that Masai and co can see, but purely on what we've seen on the court he is very reliant on PnR guard creation for his offence and that's a little concerning bringing him into this system. And he's only a solid rather than world bending defender, so the offensive side really matters if acquiring him.

That said, if the cost is just Trent, essentially, that's a swing worth taking.

Still, it all comes down to him wanting to come here, so it's a long shot.

[golden]

Ayton's agent is Bill Duffy. He also represents Scottie and Dragic. I thought the Raptors handled the Dragic situation well. They basically paid him to workout in Miami. And he got his full buyout (he didn't lose a penny off his contract).

That can always help with negotiations, in case we really are interested in him. I personally would rather pass. I don't think Ayton is all that great. You can get a drop coverage big for far cheaper.

Yep. Knicks are dangling Nerlens Noel… a way better defender and a legit lob threat. Hartenstein, Javale McGee, etc….

Those guys would be a cheap defensive upgrade to Birch and are all probably better than Ayton defensively.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Yep. Knicks are dangling Nerlens Noel… a way better defender and a legit lob threat. Hartenstein, Javale McGee, etc….

Those guys would be a cheap defensive upgrade to Birch and are all probably better than Ayton defensively.

I like Nerlens

[A.I]

Noel would be nice as a cheap defensive C.

[Primer]

How do they convince Ayton to go to the team that makes the best offer? So long as one team with cap room is willing to give him a max deal, he has the leverage to force the destination, and then the Suns are choosing between nothing in return, taking that team's offer, or matching. They clearly would prefer to not do the latter, though they won't take junk back just to appease him. So it's not really a question of what the best offer out there would be.

Based on latest rumors no team with the requisite cap space is gonna offer Ayton the max. So he will agree to go wherever the Suns make a deal to get him the max. I don't think Ayton really gives a shit where he ends up beyond being a max salary guy. I also think more desirable destinations than Toronto would be willing to offer a better sign and trade package than Trent plus trash.

[Primer]

Again, my point is the number of offers and how good they are is irrelevant. What matters is a) does Ayton have leverage (almost certainly yes), and if he does, b) where does he want to go? And then the offer from the team he actually wants to go to is weighed against just getting nothing or matching and keeping Ayton at the max. Comparing offers in a SnT makes little sense unless there is no direct signing opportunity.

If Suns wanna take his leverage they match and deal him wherever they want once they're allowed to, a few months later right? They're not going to give him a no trade clause and he would be just as easily moved after signed to the max as he would in a sign and trade for the max.

[Primer]

Suns did this many moons ago with Joe Johnson and the Hawks when Joe was a RFA. Hawks offered Joe the max and Phoenix said we're matching unless you do a sign and trade. They ended up extracting Boris Diaw and two 1st round picks for Joe. I fully expect the Suns to do the same exact thing here.

[TrueTorontoFan]

TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post"

so this is what I think happened. They obviously had a conversation with him and expressed hey we believe in you and you are important to this team but watching the tape we think you can be more successful and that the team can be more successful as well. I think they looked around and phoned to see if they could get guys like Mitchell or who ever else they have targeted to see if it was potentially worth it. Obviously not making an offer but asking hey... what would it take what would you hypothetically be interested. Just doing due diligence. My sense is that FVV is a good asset but not good enough to get what they desire. For that reason it makes sense to do asset management as you just alluded to. If they can't make it work this year then yeah you look to eject him and its easier to facilitate him as an asset locked-in for a few years rather than as a sign and trade. Even if you want to sign and trade for someone next year having a dedicated guy on your team is worth more than trying to figure out some weird double sign and trade.

I think they are keeping an eye on that OKC situation for the very second SGA ever asks out and will package assets for him".

Limited:
"

I don’t think any of that happened. I think it’s been the plan all along to extend Fred, and I don’t believe for a second that they explored any trades.

your last sentence may be true, but it has nothing to do with Fred, or wanting a different/better starting PG

I’m actually maybe in the minority in not being ready to anoint Barnes the PG of the future. Great player, but hasn’t shown THAT particular skill set just yet. People thinking Fred is going to be a SG this year may be disappointed.

I countered with outlining a post about Barnes.




Regarding Fred I said :

if you are running with this team moving fred to the bench doesn't make sense because if the choice is fred or GTJ for a shooting guard as much as I am not the biggest fan of either I choose fred. Much better shooter.

I do agree with you but again I think we have a conversation with Freddie and consider a new role if not time to start moving forward.

Regarding Trent specifically this is what I said close to the start of this entire off season thread:

Regarding Trent my main issue is his playmaking decisions. It is the exact reason why he is sometimes inconsistent and streaky. I saw him go and iso against a bunch of guys time after time after time throughout the season and in the series. When he caught the ball in catch-and-shoot situations it was fine. Nurses system is a read and react system. I am someone who believes in the system but you need everyone to be offensively high IQ players for it to work. You can't have one guy playing hero ball. I am not saying that is what lost us yesterday's game, but I think that doesn't lead to good offensive possessions. It is just as bad as guys holding the ball too long and letting the defence get set.

I can find additional things by going through the additional 70 pages of this thread but yeah I have been pretty consistent.

Do I like FVV he is a good player and I have said that multiple times but I do not like him as a long term fit but I think its good asset management but yes if there is a super star trade I don't see why he wouldn't be considered in an outgoing package.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Noel would be nice as a cheap defensive C.

there are cheaper potential options but he is very interesting