Raptors Offseason 2022

[Apollo]

Utah reportedly asked the Knicks for Quigley, Grimes, and Toppin along with 6 first round picks for Mitchell (Knicks have 11 first round picks in the next 7 years, 8 of which can be traded)

They would be better off breaking the bank for really good management, go hands-off and use the picks to rebuild properly. They didn't learn anything from the Melo era if they do this trade.

[Primer]

the thing is you still have chips to add to the table. Flynn for example if you are at the point of splitting hairs (CP3 is closer to that cliff by a long shot than KD is). We can load manage KD on this team they cannot load manage KD on the suns with their remaining team. If you really want you can toss in Precious if you MUST... but you decrease the picks.. again I ignore the whole idea of pick swaps. They don't shift things at all when you get a player of this caliber the only time they MAY matter is in 7 years time so that is the only pick swap that really truly matters or in 4-5 years time.. the early pick swaps will likely not even convey.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I don't understand the hand wringing about the pick swaps. We will have a better record and they won't swap.

Giving up 4 firsts is tough but for KD I'd do it. We gave up 2 firsts (counting Poeltl as a 1st) and an all star in Demar for Kawhi, and he was a 1 year rental not signed for 4 years. Kawhi was also coming off a serious injury, whereas KD just averaged 44 minutes per game in a 4 game playoff series. He is currently very healthy.

[golden]

They would be better off breaking the bank for really good management, go hands-off and use the picks to rebuild properly. They didn't learn anything from the Melo era if they do this trade.

And they'd be starting two small guards in the backcourt.... Lowry & FVV, part II. Big difference being, Kyle & Fred could guard bigger guys trying to post them up.

[Apollo]

And they'd be starting two small guards in the backcourt.... Lowry & FVV, part II. Big difference being, Kyle & Fred could guard bigger guys trying to post them up.

They stink and have stunk for many, many, many years because they keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. They keep building their house on sand. They will be irrelevant this season no matter what.

Here's their future: they will trade far too much for Mitchell. Mitchell doesn't live up to the expectations. Management fails to bring in the other pieces to help him contend. The team eventually implodes and Mitchell leaves some way, somehow. Rinse and repeat.

[chris]

After his rookie season, the Jazz have been averaging 55+ wins with Mitchell as the face of the franchise, in the tougher western conference.... not sure if that's what you mean by high level winning. Even as a rookie, Mitchell led them to the 2nd round... better than what FVV did this year in his first try as co-team leader. Sure, Mitchell is a sub-par defender, but opposing team's exploiting Gobert with 5-out is one of the main reason they've been below expectations in the playoffs.

by high level i mean the highest level of the playoffs. gobert had a lot to do with driving their regular season success imo.

it doesn't matter to me whether the other four guys on the floor are high level, versatile defenders... i just think it's hard to win high stakes playoff series' with a guy playing 40+ minutes a night who's getting targeted or blown by on every single possession, no matter how good he is on offense.

i think we just saw it to some degree with golden state, who were the second best defensive team in the league and the best (by a mile) before draymond got hurt (and before boston found their chemistry). but jordan poole's minutes got cut significantly between rounds 1 and 4 while GPII's went up slightly (as did curry's, who was healthier), despite the fact that poole is a much better player than GPII. they still played him 20 mins a night but they frequently got murdered when he was out there. (i point to rounds 1 and 4 specifically because they are the only two in which all three of poole, GPII, and curry were available... but i think his minutes would have been cut earlier in the playoffs had payton been available)

my point is that an incredible defensive team with an all-time great coach and HOF players whom are all plus defenders almost couldn't survive 20 mins a night of one guy getting repeatedly exploited, and definitely wouldn't have survived if they had to play him 40 mins a night.

i get that mitchell is A LOT better than poole offensively which offsets some of the negatives on the defensive side, but i just can't remember a lot of guys* that fit his profile making or winning the finals. and i'm against allocating that much cap space to that type of player, especially at the asset cost it would take to acquire him

i'm curious what you think the difference is between lillard and mitchell, other than the salary (and mitchell's next max will be hefty) and the fact that lillard's peak has been much higher than mitchell's (acknowledging that mitchell prob hasn't peaked yet)? because i thought i read you say that players fitting lillard's profile never win, which i agreed with. mitchell is the same profile

*kyrie maybe? playing alongside apex lebron and that was an asterisk finals anyways. please don't say curry, who's always been an underrated defensive player and does so much more for an offense with his screening/off-ball movement/playmaking/general gravity.

[Demographic Shift]

I really do not think Turner is an upgrade over Precious one bit. If the argument is Precious is smaller so Turner is better then why does Precious do way better against Embiid than Turner does?

Just a difference of positions then.
I remain an Alt - C centre bigot.
The position carries value as the last 4 league MVP's are dominant big men.(Jokic x 2 and The Alphabet x 2)
We have to be better than we are right now at the 5.
I think that Turner is an upgrade over what we have now . I see Achiwua as more of a PF and the small ball centre with Turner as the starter.
The two combined make us better than we are now.
Its tough to give up that much weight playing out of position night in and night out.

[golden]

by high level i mean the highest level of the playoffs. gobert had a lot to do with driving their regular season success imo.

it doesn't matter to me whether the other four guys on the floor are high level, versatile defenders... i just think it's hard to win high stakes playoff series' with a guy playing 40+ minutes a night who's getting targeted or blown by on every single possession, no matter how good he is on offense.

i think we just saw it to some degree with golden state, who were the second best defensive team in the league and the best (by a mile) before draymond got hurt (and before boston found their chemistry). but jordan poole's minutes got cut significantly between rounds 1 and 4 while GPII's went up slightly (as did curry's, who was healthier), despite the fact that poole is a much better player than GPII. they still played him 20 mins a night but they frequently got murdered when he was out there. (i point to rounds 1 and 4 specifically because they are the only two in which all three of poole, GPII, and curry were available... but i think his minutes would have been cut earlier in the playoffs had payton been available)

my point is that an incredible defensive team with an all-time great coach and HOF players whom are all plus defenders almost couldn't survive 20 mins a night of one guy getting repeatedly exploited, and definitely wouldn't have survived if they had to play him 40 mins a night.

i get that mitchell is A LOT better than poole offensively which offsets some of the negatives on the defensive side, but i just can't remember a lot of guys* that fit his profile making or winning the finals. and i'm against allocating that much cap space to that type of player, especially at the asset cost it would take to acquire him

i'm curious what you think the difference is between lillard and mitchell, other than the salary (and mitchell's next max will be hefty) and the fact that lillard's peak has been much higher than mitchell's (acknowledging that mitchell prob hasn't peaked yet)? because i thought i read you say that players fitting lillard's profile never win, which i agreed with. mitchell is the same profile

*kyrie maybe? playing alongside apex lebron and that was an asterisk finals anyways. please don't say curry, who's always been an underrated defensive player and does so much more for an offense with his screening/off-ball movement/playmaking/general gravity.

Is it Mitchell's fault that Utah's regular season strategy is to have Gobert sit back in the paint and perimeter defenders funnel everybody to him? And that strategy falls apart in the playoffs, when teams go 5-out and Gobert is in no-man's land, or has to let Nic Batum or Max Kleber torch them for 3. That's a key reason why they can't win at the highest level. Is that Mitchell's fault or Quin Snyder?

Considering that Mitchell has been averaging 55 win seasons and has gotten to the second round twice... it was odd to hear him specifically labelled as a "non-winning" player. But you've moved the goalposts to "at the highest level", which would now include some legit 2-way players.

But also let's face it... what true superstar does Utah even have to allow them to win "at the highest level". Raps didn't do that until they got Kawhi. Seems more like the Jazz could have been over-achieving during Mitchell's tenure.

In terms of profile, agreed...Lillard and Mitchell are similar and I would normally avoid those type of players. But.... he fits a specific desperate team need like a glove (shot creation from the guard spot).... and we have the elite Nick Nurse and a deep culture of defense. Lillard had no accountability in Portland under Stotts and that set the culture, along with CJ. So yeah, I'd be betting on Nurse's reputation to coach him up.

My main issue with Lillard was more about the whole "he's loyal because he grudgingly agreed to take $60M+ per year. lol. That's so twisted.

[Primer]

Just a difference of positions then.
I remain an Alt - C centre bigot.
The position carries value as the last 4 league MVP's are dominant big men.(Jokic x 2 and The Alphabet x 2)
We have to be better than we are right now at the 5.
I think that Turner is an upgrade over what we have now . I see Achiwua as more of a PF and the small ball centre with Turner as the starter.
The two combined make us better than we are now.
Its tough to give up that much weight playing out of position night in and night out.

But Turner gets abused by all the leagues good big men, so what's the point of adding him?

Precious plays C for us, not PF, there is no one else on the court with him playing C, he's playing that position. You can say he's a PF all you want but fact remains on the Raptors he plays exclusively at C.

If we could get Embiid or Jokic on this team then "Yes please", but Turner is nowhere close to either of those guys and can't defend them for shit either.

Giving up the weight doesn't seem to be an issue for Precious because he does a better job against elite C than Turner does. Results matter a hell of a lot more than a guys weight does.

If Precious is at PF then where does Pascal play? He's our starting PF. If not him then OG, and if not OG then Scottie. There is simply no room for Precious at PF and Turner at C, and it would just make us worse defensively against elite C anyways.

I'm very down with getting an elite C but Turner ain't it.

[TrueTorontoFan]

But Turner gets abused by all the leagues good big men, so what's the point of adding him?

Precious plays C for us, not PF, there is no one else on the court with him playing C, he's playing that position. You can say he's a PF all you want but fact remains on the Raptors he plays exclusively at C.

If we could get Embiid or Jokic on this team then "Yes please", but Turner is nowhere close to either of those guys and can't defend them for shit either.

Giving up the weight doesn't seem to be an issue for Precious because he does a better job against elite C than Turner does. Results matter a hell of a lot more than a guys weight does.

If Precious is at PF then where does Pascal play? He's our starting PF. If not him then OG, and if not OG then Scottie. There is simply no room for Precious at PF and Turner at C, and it would just make us worse defensively against elite C anyways.

I'm very down with getting an elite C but Turner ain't it.

I think Achuiwa can play PF demographics point but to play it well his offence needs to dramatically improve... but defensively he can guard 1-5 ...turner cannot. I think people are having a tough time with the fact that you may not necessarily need ANY center... Turner is great but at this point we don't NEED turner.

[The Great One]

I've been sayin this since the 1st half of last season: Precious is better than Turner.

[planetmars]

I've been sayin this since the 1st half of last season: Precious is better than Turner.

Yup.. he's also better than Poeltl and people wanted to move Precious and a first for him.

[The Great One]

Since the Jazz are in firesale mode why not go after someone that can actually help the team and not some center that we don't need. Someone like Bogdanovic or Beverley would be nice.

[Primer]

I think Achuiwa can play PF demographics point but to play it well his offence needs to dramatically improve... but defensively he can guard 1-5 ...turner cannot. I think people are having a tough time with the fact that you may not necessarily need ANY center... Turner is great but at this point we don't NEED turner.

I agree Precious can play PF. Why that has any bearing on us needing Turner though I do not get. Lots of C can also play PF. His argument is more akin to we need a C that cannot play PF, which doesn't make any sense to me.

[Ebonhawke]

Since the Jazz are in firesale mode why not go after someone that can actually help the team and not some center that we don't need. Someone like Bogdanovic or Beverley would be nice.

Tim McMahon agrees with you

ESPN’s Tim MacMahon recently relayed on The Lowe Post podcast that the Raptors might be interested in Jazz forward Bojan Bogdanovic (hat tip to RealGM). “If the Jazz and Raptors do a trade, I think Bogdanovic would be the guy going to Toronto, not Donovan Mitchell,” said MacMahon. “Just saying.” “Spicy,” replied Zach Lowe. “I’ve heard rumblings there,” added MacMahon. “Nothing imminent or anything close to it. I think he’s a guy… the Raptors can certainly use a 6’8? shooter like Bogdanovic. For the Jazz in a rebuild, they’re obviously trying to move him.” Bogdanovic holds a career three-point percentage of 39.2% and Toronto was 20th in the league in three-point shooting last season at 34.9%, so he could be a decent fit with the Raptors. The 33-year-old is on an expiring contract worth $19.5MM next season, so matching his salary might be a little difficult, assuming Toronto is interested.

[planetmars]

Bojan makes $19M and is a free agent. Not really a guy you trade for. Only thing making sense would be to move him for Gary.. but I'd rather have Gary since he plays a position we're weak in (off guard) over another wing player. I do like that Bojan can light it up from 3.. but so can Gary.

Neither are great defenders, but Gary at least can rack up deflections and steals.. and create extra possessions.