Raptors Offseason 2022

[Primer]

Tim McMahon agrees with you

Birch, Svi, and Flynn for Pat Beverley works.

They get a young PG in Flynn who could work with whatever they do next. Birch is a solid vet who gives them a C. Svi is a guy who makes a salary.

Beverley is a great defender and a pretty good 3pt shooter. He would help a lot more than the guys we'd be sending out.

[chris]

Is it Mitchell's fault that Utah's regular season strategy is to have Gobert sit back in the paint and perimeter defenders funnel everybody to him? And that strategy falls apart in the playoffs, when teams go 5-out and Gobert is in no-man's land, or has to let Nic Batum or Max Kleber torch them for 3. That's a key reason why they can't win at the highest level. Is that Mitchell's fault or Quin Snyder?

part of it's just bad luck in that they happened to run into teams particularly well-suited to playing 5-out in the rockets, nuggets, and clippers. but mitchell is definitely culpable for letting his guy get past him too often and i have no confidence he wouldn't get torched if they ever did advance past the second round

Considering that Mitchell has been averaging 55 win seasons and has gotten to the second round twice... it was odd to hear him specifically labelled as a "non-winning" player. But you've moved the goalposts to "at the highest level", which would now include some legit 2-way players.

i never labelled him a non-winning player and i haven't moved any goalposts, all i said was that it's "real hard to win at a high level with that kind of player." sorry i didn't provide the level of detail you were looking for about what i meant by that. to clarify, you can absolutely have a successful regular season and win a round or two of the playoffs being built around a one-dimensional star player, depending on the rest of the roster construction. at some point in the playoffs though you'll get exploited and that offensive talent alone is unlikely to be able to carry you.

But also let's face it... what true superstar does Utah even have to allow them to win "at the highest level". Raps didn't do that until they got Kawhi. Seems more like the Jazz could have been over-achieving during Mitchell's tenure.

i mean they obviously haven't had that player since malone. danny ainge seems to agree and is trying to acquire one via the draft, which i think is a sound strategy. i agree they probably did max out their potential given the huge limitations of their two foundational players.

In terms of profile, agreed...Lillard and Mitchell are similar and I would normally avoid those type of players. But.... he fits a specific desperate team need like a glove (shot creation from the guard spot).... and we have the elite Nick Nurse and a deep culture of defense. Lillard had no accountability in Portland under Stotts and that set the culture, along with CJ. So yeah, I'd be betting on Nurse's reputation to coach him up.

My main issue with Lillard was more about the whole "he's loyal because he grudgingly agreed to take $60M+ per year. lol. That's so twisted.

we seem to agree on lillard. we disagree on whether adding mitchell raises the ceiling of this team. i just think it's too hard to overcome playing a guy huge minutes who's a complete liability on defense, even if you have an elite coach (and i do think nurse is elite) and excellent defenders elsewhere on the team.

and i don't think this team is all that far off as constructed. you said yourself many times last season that the east is pretty wide open and i agree with that. there is no juggernaut and it is not-preordained that any team will represent the east in the finals the way there has been in the past. this team has enormous potential for internal growth between some of the young players. barnes clearly has superstar potential, if not as a walking-bucket type of player. and i'm not convinced you necessarily need one of those types of players if you have enough threats elsewhere on the floor.

i'd just far prefer to have a team comprising capable two-way players even if none of them are at a mitchell-level offensively, than to have an overreliance on one offensive option that totally sucks defensively. especially considering the cost in both assets to acquire him and cap allocation.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Birch, Svi, and Flynn for Pat Beverley works.

They get a young PG in Flynn who could work with whatever they do next. Birch is a solid vet who gives them a C. Svi is a guy who makes a salary.

Beverley is a great defender and a pretty good 3pt shooter. He would help a lot more than the guys we'd be sending out.

It is interesting

[G__Deane]

Birch, Svi, and Flynn for Pat Beverley works.

They get a young PG in Flynn who could work with whatever they do next. Birch is a solid vet who gives them a C. Svi is a guy who makes a salary.

Beverley is a great defender and a pretty good 3pt shooter. He would help a lot more than the guys we'd be sending out.

But do Birch, Svi and Flynn have any value whatsoever, even collectively?
Like we literally play 2-3 guys out of position before Flynn, Birch is a nothing burger and Svi is buried so far down the end of our bench he can't see the centre of it.

[TrueTorontoFan]

But do Birch, Svi and Flynn have any value whatsoever, even collectively?
Like we literally play 2-3 guys out of position before Flynn, Birch is a nothing burger and Svi is buried so far down the end of our bench he can't see the centre of it.

svi no .... birch I think has medium.. flynn has value yes.



birch isn't bad he just isn't good lol....i just really want naw

[Primer]

But do Birch, Svi and Flynn have any value whatsoever, even collectively?
Like we literally play 2-3 guys out of position before Flynn, Birch is a nothing burger and Svi is buried so far down the end of our bench he can't see the centre of it.

Flynn is a good prospect still on a rookie deal that just doesn't fit our system at all. If you run a traditional NBA offense he's a good fit. He's shown flashes of what he's capable of but we don't run an offense that he excels at.

Birch is a perfectly fine bench big who can start in a pinch.

Svi is there to make the salaries work.

If you're Utah would you rather a 2nd round pick or former first in Flynn?

Its 34 year old Pat Beverley on an expiring, not KD, no one is giving them a first. I think Flynn is about as much value as they could hope for.

[Ebonhawke]

I'd be curious if Beverly's personality/ego would fit in the Raptors locker room

[golden]

It is interesting

If your definition of high level winning means championship or bust, then I guess you can’t build around lots of HoF’ers. I thought consistent 55-win teams would be pretty high level winning for most of the NBA.

Heck, by your definition even Lowry would have a similar regular season winning resume as Mitchell, and not be considered a high level winner if not for the Kawhi trade and Lebron leaving the conference.

Or how about all the top players in the Jordan era who didn’t win it all, like Malone.

[chris]

If your definition of high level winning means championship or bust, then I guess you can’t build around lots of HoF’ers. I thought consistent 55-win teams would be pretty high level winning for most of the NBA.

Heck, by your definition even Lowry would have a similar regular season winning resume as Mitchell, and not be considered a high level winner if not for the Kawhi trade and Lebron leaving the conference.

Or how about all the top players in the Jordan era who didn’t win it all, like Malone.

i'm assuming this is directed at me even though you quoted TTF.

yes my definition of winning at the highest level is competing for chamionships, what is yours?

i'm not understanding your point about lowry, because he is a two-way player who did win at the highest level. i'm not saying guys like lowry can lead a team to contention all on their own, but i am saying you're probably more likely to have a team that is in contention with guys like lowry on your team than with guys like mitchell, assuming the rest of the roster is contention worthy. like, plunk mitchell into lowry or jrue holiday's roles on the raptors or bucks and i'm not sure those teams win the title, as i expect he'd et eaten alive. neither the bucks or raptors had any significant exploitable players on the defensive side playing major minutes, which was a big part of why they won. you could say this about most championship teams in recent memory, and probably not recent memory too.

i'm not sure which small ball-dominant one way players of the jordan era you're referring to, but malone was neither small nor a one-way player. he absolutely could have won and probably would have were it not for jordan.

but yes there are a number of HOFers i personally would not want to allocate the type of assets or salary it would take to get mitchell to build around. that probably seems crazy to a lot of ppl. to me it seems crazier to allocate those tremendous resources to a player archetype it has been proven is extremely hard to win with, no matter what type of team you put around him.

[Demographic Shift]

But Turner gets abused by all the leagues good big men, so what's the point of adding him?

Precious plays C for us, not PF, there is no one else on the court with him playing C, he's playing that position. You can say he's a PF all you want but fact remains on the Raptors he plays exclusively at C.

If we could get Embiid or Jokic on this team then "Yes please", but Turner is nowhere close to either of those guys and can't defend them for shit either.

Giving up the weight doesn't seem to be an issue for Precious because he does a better job against elite C than Turner does. Results matter a hell of a lot more than a guys weight does.

If Precious is at PF then where does Pascal play? He's our starting PF. If not him then OG, and if not OG then Scottie. There is simply no room for Precious at PF and Turner at C, and it would just make us worse defensively against elite C anyways.

I'm very down with getting an elite C but Turner ain't it.

My man we are just not going to come to a shared view on Turner.
Sports eh.

Free Agency and trades still have some time to run.
I am hopeful we make a material move. What we have on board is good but not good enough to catch the likes of Boston and the Bucks.

[Hotshot]

I'd be curious if Beverly's personality/ego would fit in the Raptors locker room

Most players that played with Bev liked him.

He is more of a menace when facing the opponent.

We got some new veterans now in Thad & newly minted champion OPJ that also have a strong voice in the locker room.

It might be worth to wait for a better deal if you are already willing to deal 3 players.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Most players that played with Bev liked him.

He is more of a menace when facing the opponent.

We got some new veterans now in Thad & newly minted champion OPJ that also have a strong voice in the locker room.

It might be worth to wait for a better deal if you are already willing to deal 3 players.

I actually dig it

[Kagemusha]

Most players that played with Bev liked him.

He is more of a menace when facing the opponent.

We got some new veterans now in Thad & newly minted champion OPJ that also have a strong voice in the locker room.

It might be worth to wait for a better deal if you are already willing to deal 3 players.

I'd pass on Bev.
I like his story and competitiveness but he really offers virtually nothing else.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'd pass on Bev.
I like his story and competitiveness but he really offers virtually nothing else.

for advanced metrics when healthy he is an 80th percentile player on both ends of the ball... but go on

[Kagemusha]

for advanced metrics when healthy he is an 80th percentile player on both ends of the ball... but go on

Dragic is 122 on offence.
just saying..