Raptors Offseason 2022

[Kagemusha]

Nah. JV started 3 games and played 101 minutes vs. Heat. Biz started 4 games and played 181 minutes.

Biz carried them more than JV in the Heat series. Which is still besides the point.

In what universe, can a team have Luis Scola, DeMarre Carroll and Biz starting a single NBA playoff game.... let alone make the ECF? The excuses for Nurse most likely losing with that roster would be off the charts.

They lost against Miami coz JV got hurt.
JV was averaging double doubles in ppg and rebs throughout the playoffs.
DeMarre was a good 3 &D at that time, Scola was washed yes, but still ok

[golden]

They lost against Miami coz JV got hurt.
JV was averaging double doubles in ppg and rebs throughout the playoffs.
DeMarre was a good 3 &D at that time, Scola was washed yes, but still good.

??? I think you're mis-remembering 2016. JV got hurt and we still won. It was round 2.

The year Casey went to the ECF.....

Round 1: Beat Pacers 4-3
Round 2: Beat Heat 4-3
ECF: Lost to Cavs 2-4

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../TOR/2016.html

[TrueTorontoFan]

I thought you wanted to move on?

"Trash" is an exaggeration. I do know many Raptor fans celebrated when Casey was fired. A lot don't like him at all. Like he's one of the worst coach's in the league. I don't just read this forum either.

This community has like 15-20 posters in it. I bet half of them don't like Casey at all.

I am moving on but you also keep misrepresenting my words to an egregious level.

its not just an exaggeration to say that hardheaded is the equivalent of saying trash. unless it is your position that no one is allowed to point out mistakes. It is actually a complete misrepresentation and mischaracterization of the term. So its either it was misrepresented on purpose or it was mischaracterized because you didn't read it properly. It is beyond softening it by saying its just an exaggeration. I will objectively be fair to DanH. Saying he wasn't prepared.. while may ore may not be true is not the same as being trash. You can come in underprepared but develop on the fly plans and hit back hard and win.

There are people that celebrate everything. I would say the vast majority felt like it was time to go but gave casey his props as a culture setter and one that was needed when he was hired. I thinking that is the majority of raptors fans positions... particularly those who are not just getting into basketball right now.

Also just because someone doesn't like casey doesn't mean they think he was trash.. you can not like someone and still respect their ability to do a job. The prevailing narrative is what I just stated in the above few sentences. Again you seem to of the belief that casey can only be one of two things and that there is little to no nuance to discuss regarding Casey.. Even though at bare minimum I have outlined many nuanced points ...that you have misrepresented or just ignored to continue the same charade.

[planetmars]

I am moving on but you also keep misrepresenting my words to an egregious level.

its not just an exaggeration to say that hardheaded is the equivalent of saying trash. unless it is your position that no one is allowed to point out mistakes. It is actually a complete misrepresentation and mischaracterization of the term. So its either it was misrepresented on purpose or it was mischaracterized because you didn't read it properly. It is beyond softening it by saying its just an exaggeration. I will objectively be fair to DanH. Saying he wasn't prepared.. while may ore may not be true is not the same as being trash. You can come in underprepared but develop on the fly plans and hit back hard and win.

There are people that celebrate everything. I would say the vast majority felt like it was time to go but gave casey his props as a culture setter and one that was needed when he was hired. I thinking that is the majority of raptors fans positions... particularly those who are not just getting into basketball right now.

Also just because someone doesn't like casey doesn't mean they think he was trash.. you can not like someone and still respect their ability to do a job. The prevailing narrative is what I just stated in the above few sentences. Again you seem to of the belief that casey can only be one of two things and that there is little to no nuance to discuss regarding Casey.. Even though at bare minimum I have outlined many nuanced points ...that you have misrepresented or just ignored to continue the same charade.

I only used trash from what I recall in one post. And it was an exaggeration (I already said this). I use trash when people hate on someone or think they suck. There are absolutely levels to that. Of course Casey is an NBA caliber coach.. and a different team gave him a 5 year contract when he was fired here. But when you rank him among his peers he's likely not considered a top tier coach. Among his peers he's likely considered not very good. Now that's subjective but I have been around Raptor forums for some time. Casey is not a coach that fans generally liked. They were happy to see him leave.. and joke around about him all the time.

I don't know why you are being such a stickler for this term I used maybe one time. And I apologize for obviously offending you. I figured you didn't like Casey just like many don't.. and is a big reason why you thought he couldn't win a championship. If you think he can then this is all pointless. I'm sorry I dragged you into this conversation.

[DanH]

You seem to have this strange feeling that the most perfect coach would have lead the Raptors from 2018 or 2017 to a championship. Someone might have been able to squeeze out another win or two but that team was seriously flawed. You need super stars to win in the league.. especially when the championship those 2 years had two top 5 super stars in their prime on it.

As for not being prepared.. isn't that the same problem that guys like Bud or Rivers or Vogel had?

I never once said I thought a better coach would take that team to the championship. They probably still lose at some point in the playoffs. But they were very good, flawed teams. And underperformed in the playoffs because they were poorly coached, flaming out before their talent ceiling would have stopped them.

Which is exactly the same as what would have happened if Casey were coaching a team with a much higher talent ceiling - coaching would have caused them to lose before their talent level would have indicated. In other words, no chip for us.

[DanH]

Casey made the ECF with a starting lineup of: Lowry, DD, DeMarre Carroll, Scola and Bismack.

Let that sink in. Carroll, Scola and Biz.

And Carroll and Scola were completely washed at that point.

I am 100% certain that if Nurse coaches that starting lineup over a regular season, we are tanking for a top 5 pick, let alone talking about playoffs,

To be fair, he made the ECF largely with a lineup that started JV, JV just got hurt mid-playoff-run and Bismack stepped in. Scola barely played much at all in those playoffs in spite of Casey doubling down on starting him all year for absolutely no reason.

Mind you, that one run was definitely Casey's peak as a coach - he even adjusted a couple of times! Sadly he followed it up with coaching performances more in line with his typical quality in the following years.

[planetmars]

I never once said I thought a better coach would take that team to the championship. They probably still lose at some point in the playoffs. But they were very good, flawed teams. And underperformed in the playoffs because they were poorly coached, flaming out before their talent ceiling would have stopped them.

Which is exactly the same as what would have happened if Casey were coaching a team with a much higher talent ceiling - coaching would have caused them to lose before their talent level would have indicated. In other words, no chip for us.

If a better coach wouldn't take that team to a championship then what is the point in any of this? They would have won two more games or gotten to the finals and still lose? That's still pretty much a failure in the grand scheme of things.

As for Casey coaching a higher talented team and losing.. there is no basis on it. I can counter by showing examples where coach's as good as Casey have won it all. Case in point Doc Rivers.

[DanH]

Nah. JV started 3 games and played 101 minutes vs. Heat. Biz started 4 games and played 181 minutes.

Biz carried them more than JV in the Heat series. Which is still besides the point.

In what universe, can a team have Luis Scola, DeMarre Carroll and Biz starting a single NBA playoff game.... let alone make the ECF? The excuses for Nurse most likely losing with that roster would be off the charts.

I mean, kinda.

Carroll was actually fine, he just wasn't as good as you'd want from his contract. 4th/5th starter material through and through.

Biz was a +22 over 7 games. JV was +39 in 2.5 games. The starters were dominating with JV there (and the bench, including Bismack, was a compete disaster) and Bismack got plugged in and they continued doing very well (though obviously and expectedly took a bit of a step back, including game 6 in particular where it fell apart).

Worth noting at that point in the playoffs Scola wasn't even playing, Patterson having finally taken over the starting spot that he should have had all season long. This was basically peak Patterson, too, he was a solid player at that point. If Nurse had spent all season starting Scola over Patterson I'd have raked him over the coals too like I did with Casey. Heck, Nick has shown unnerving patterns in that vein with this stupid small starting group, though at least I can see some political reasoning for that. No reason at all for the Scola garbage...

Also worth noting that Heat team (and Indy team) was just really bad. Raps got lucky to get matched up with the 6th and 7th best teams in the East based on SRS/point differential in their two rounds on the way to the ECF. Well, the 7th they earned by placing 2nd, but getting Miami in round two was a gift from the gods, and without that there's no way the Raps survive losing JV, even with the benefit of just not playing with the Scola anchor around their necks anymore.

[DanH]

If a better coach wouldn't take that team to a championship then what is the point in any of this? They would have won two more games or gotten to the finals and still lose? That's still pretty much a failure in the grand scheme of things.

As for Casey coaching a higher talented team and losing.. there is no basis on it. I can counter by showing examples where coach's as good as Casey have won it all. Case in point Doc Rivers.

Ah, so your point is because sometimes a poor coach will manage to avoid fumbling it away, even if they usually do, there's no difference between that coach and a coach who will fumble it away less often?

My point about the Casey coached teams was that he coached them poorly. Not sure how I need to be more clear about that. We can acknowledge that those teams were not winning the championship while also acknowledging that he did anything but maximize the talent he did have.

[Primer]

It's absolutely wild to me that people are fawning over Dwane Casey's coaching ability. Very short memories around here.

[golden]

It's absolutely wild to me that people are fawning over Dwane Casey's coaching ability. Very short memories around here.

Nobody's fawning over Casey (kind of ironic statement coming from a poster who fawns over Nurse). I was a big Casey nay-sayer at the time, and I totally remember that period. The point PM is trying to make is that sometimes coaching didn't make a difference, like in 2019. I don't fully agree that coaching always makes no difference. Coach Bud and Kerr are 2 good examples of completely changing playing style to fit personnel, where coaching made a difference.

But in 2019 it was the roster changeover (to elite defense) and not having to face Lebron & KD that was at least 90% responsible for the championship. A handful of coaching could (including Casey) could have taken that roster to the promised land given the same set of conditions. Nurse was gifted a championship calibre team in 2019... with the additional luck of having Lebron & KD out of the way. Casey never had that opportunity. Would he have screwed that up? I doubt any average-to-above average coach would have.... but that's the debate here, I guess.

Whereas, you give Nurse: Scola, Biz, DeMarre Carroll and heck, even a 3&D challenged DeRozan and you've 100% got a lottery team and a battalion of disciples with a bushel of excuses ready for Nurse. Casey got that flawed roster to the ECF. That deserves some recognition.

[A.I]

Nobody's fawning over Casey (kind of ironic statement coming from a poster who fawns over Nurse). I was a big Casey nay-sayer at the time, and I totally remember that period. The point PM is trying to make is that sometimes coaching didn't make a difference, like in 2019. I don't fully agree that coaching always makes no difference. Coach Bud and Kerr are 2 good examples of completely changing playing style to fit personnel, where coaching made a difference.

But in 2019 it was the roster changeover (to elite defense) and not having to face Lebron & KD that was at least 90% responsible for the championship. A handful of coaching could (including Casey) could have taken that roster to the promised land given the same set of conditions. Nurse was gifted a championship calibre team in 2019... with the additional luck of having Lebron & KD out of the way. Casey never had that opportunity. Would he have screwed that up? I doubt any average-to-above average coach would have.... but that's the debate here, I guess.

Whereas, you give Nurse: Scola, Biz, DeMarre Carroll and heck, even a 3&D challenged DeRozan and you've 100% got a lottery team and a battalion of disciples with a bushel of excuses ready for Nurse. Casey got that flawed roster to the ECF. That deserves some recognition.

Are we creating even more ridiculous speculative arguments now from an already speculative argument?

[TrueTorontoFan]

Nobody's fawning over Casey (kind of ironic statement coming from a poster who fawns over Nurse). I was a big Casey nay-sayer at the time, and I totally remember that period. The point PM is trying to make is that sometimes coaching didn't make a difference, like in 2019. I don't fully agree that coaching always makes no difference. Coach Bud and Kerr are 2 good examples of completely changing playing style to fit personnel, where coaching made a difference.

But in 2019 it was the roster changeover (to elite defense) and not having to face Lebron & KD that was at least 90% responsible for the championship. A handful of coaching could (including Casey) could have taken that roster to the promised land given the same set of conditions. Nurse was gifted a championship calibre team in 2019... with the additional luck of having Lebron & KD out of the way. Casey never had that opportunity. Would he have screwed that up? I doubt any average-to-above average coach would have.... but that's the debate here, I guess.

Whereas, you give Nurse: Scola, Biz, DeMarre Carroll and heck, even a 3&D challenged DeRozan and you've 100% got a lottery team and a battalion of disciples with a bushel of excuses ready for Nurse. Casey got that flawed roster to the ECF. That deserves some recognition.

The bolded and underlined parts disagree with one another PM was not saying sometimes. PM was adament that coaching makes no difference... The original argument had to do with udoka. Keep that in mind.

The roster was better obviously yes but the argument that many have been making was about the in game adjustments. Our squad was balanced and talented but we weren't so far and away above our competition talent wisethat it was clear cut otherwise you would have seen most series end by game 6 max or game 5... look back at the orlando series.. or the most recent brooklyn series where the talent discrepancy was so massive that it literally didn't matter. By comparison you have to look at series that were closer talent wise even if the other team was a bit more talented on paper. The boston series is one good example of this... philly this year where we fought back and made adjustments... perhaps you can look at the indiana series or miami series as well. Those are the series that need to be looked at... actually one fair way to look is the two most recent bucks series we have had one was with nurse one was with casey IF you want to go down the coaching talent rabbit hole thing.

[golden]

The bolded and underlined parts disagree with one another PM was not saying sometimes. PM was adament that coaching makes no difference... The original argument had to do with udoka. Keep that in mind.

The roster was better obviously yes but the argument that many have been making was about the in game adjustments. Our squad was balanced and talented but we weren't so far and away above our competition talent wisethat it was clear cut otherwise you would have seen most series end by game 6 max or game 5... look back at the orlando series.. or the most recent brooklyn series where the talent discrepancy was so massive that it literally didn't matter. By comparison you have to look at series that were closer talent wise even if the other team was a bit more talented on paper. The boston series is one good example of this... philly this year where we fought back and made adjustments... perhaps you can look at the indiana series or miami series as well. Those are the series that need to be looked at... actually one fair way to look is the two most recent bucks series we have had one was with nurse one was with casey IF you want to go down the coaching talent rabbit hole thing.

Yeah, I think that PM is implying "always", and I don't agree with that. Everything else he's saying is reasonable.

[SkywalkerAC]

Dayum this offseason got even more painful near the end here, didn't it? Almost over.