The Raptors and KD. Let's discuss.

[DanH]

I'd give up Trent and Birch and Svi plus picks for Mitchell if we strike out on KD, but Trent is the best player I'm including in that trade. That would be similar to the return they got for Gobert, but slightly better in my opinion due to Trent.

You going 7 years deep on unprotected picks in that deal? Not sure I am...

[Limited Upside]

I agree with you but why wait until the trade deadline. The whole point is you get this guy to get him in to your training camp. Also Ben Simmons is not top 25 and was not ever top 25

Because Nets aren't getting any offers they like right now and will likely be fine starting the season with all 3 of KD, Kyrie and Simmons. At this point, if they don't lower their asking price for KD substantially, if I were them I'd just hold KD to the fire and make him play. He's not the kind of guy to sit out or make a scene, he loves to play, and he apparently still likes Kyrie (he's mad at the Nets, from all accounts, not at Kyrie). Maybe they start the season well and all the drama goes away (I doubt it, but possible).

[A.I]

I'll do Trent being the center piece in a trade for Mitchell. Nothing more. The guy is a pylon defensively. Thats tough to deal with as a guy who will be one of your main options.

[golden]

Because Nets aren't getting any offers they like right now and will likely be fine starting the season with all 3 of KD, Kyrie and Simmons. At this point, if they don't lower their asking price for KD substantially, if I were them I'd just hold KD to the fire and make him play. He's not the kind of guy to sit out or make a scene, he loves to play, and he apparently still likes Kyrie (he's mad at the Nets, from all accounts, not at Kyrie). Maybe they start the season well and all the drama goes away (I doubt it, but possible).

It will probably come out later, but when KD signed his extension, he might have received some type of implied promise from the Nets ownership that they would keep Kyrie/KD core together for the duration of KD's contract. Not signing Kyrie long-term might be viewed as the Nets breaking that agreement; hence, the justification for the immediate trade demand... as soon as long-term negotiations with Kyrie fell apart. The timing was too coincidental.

[Primer]

You going 7 years deep on unprotected picks in that deal? Not sure I am...

I don't like this framing.

It's 4 picks, one every other year.

We have dealt a lot of our firsts since Masai has been here so it's really not that far off our current course.

2013 no pick
2014 pick
2015 pick
2016 pick
2017 pick
2018 no pick
2019 no pick
2020 pick
2021 pick
2022 no pick

So in the past 5 drafts we've only had 2 first round picks.

Saying we're going deep on 7 years of unprotected picks is disigneous when it's really every other year for 7 years and only 4 picks, we'd still have 3 picks over that time frame, which is a higher pick rate than we have had the last 5 years.

Mitchell is young, signed long term, and very very good. I think he'd be worth it.

[golden]

I'll do Trent being the center piece in a trade for Mitchell. Nothing more. The guy is a pylon defensively. Thats tough to deal with as a guy who will be one of your main options.

Luka was a defensive pylon, but Kidd was able to coach him up to a top 6 defense. And the Mavs don't even have the plethora of elite defenders that the Raptors have to surround Luka with.

Isn't Nurse an elite coach... orders of magnitude better than Kidd? He should be able to coach Mitchell up to being a 2-way player, no?

[LJ2]

I agree with you but why wait until the trade deadline. The whole point is you get this guy to get him in to your training camp. Also Ben Simmons is not top 25 and was not ever top 25

I'm not sure they will wait until the trade deadline, but if they do I vaguely recall someone mentioning that certain newly acquired players become available for trade sometime after point early in the new year? If that is true then it allows for teams to put together better packages especially if that means guys that just got drafted might be available to include in a package.

[slaw]

It will probably come out later, but when KD signed his extension, he might have received some type of implied promise from the Nets ownership that they would keep Kyrie/KD core together for the duration of KD's contract. Not signing Kyrie long-term might be viewed as the Nets breaking that agreement; hence, the justification for the immediate trade demand... as soon as long-term negotiations with Kyrie fell apart. The timing was too coincidental.

How does this square with KD publicly saying he wasn't getting involved in the Irving talks? If you are correct, and you may very well be, then Durant should have demanded to be at the table in the Irving talks. Now, maybe everyone knew all this and Brooklyn didn't care anymore given all the Irving crap but it again goes to show that Durant's engineering of all this was terrible from the outset.

[slaw]

Because Nets aren't getting any offers they like right now and will likely be fine starting the season with all 3 of KD, Kyrie and Simmons. At this point, if they don't lower their asking price for KD substantially, if I were them I'd just hold KD to the fire and make him play. He's not the kind of guy to sit out or make a scene, he loves to play, and he apparently still likes Kyrie (he's mad at the Nets, from all accounts, not at Kyrie). Maybe they start the season well and all the drama goes away (I doubt it, but possible).

I'm sure that will work out great. Disgruntled superstar, Kyrie Irving with free agency coming up and the fragile Ben Simmons, all led by a coach that looks like he desperately wants out of there and a GM who is almost certainly going to be fired once he cleans up his own mess. Sounds like a recipe for success.

[DanH]

I don't like this framing.

It's 4 picks, one every other year.

We have dealt a lot of our firsts since Masai has been here so it's really not that far off our current course.

2013 no pick
2014 pick
2015 pick
2016 pick
2017 pick
2018 no pick
2019 no pick
2020 pick
2021 pick
2022 no pick

So in the past 5 drafts we've only had 2 first round picks.

Saying we're going deep on 7 years of unprotected picks is disigneous when it's really every other year for 7 years and only 4 picks, we'd still have 3 picks over that time frame, which is a higher pick rate than we have had the last 5 years.

Mitchell is young, signed long term, and very very good. I think he'd be worth it.

It would be 4 picks (2023, 2025, 2027, 2029) and 3 swaps (2024, 2026, 2028). The early swap is unlikely to be used but the later ones (2026, 2028) are a huge risk if you end up in a rebuilding stage a half decade from now.

Dealing a lot of firsts a year out (which is I believe the furthest ahead Masai has traded a pick while here) is very different from having no protection on pick control for a solid half decade in the time period after your entire core is no longer under contract.

Meanwhile, Mitchell is excellent offensively. And an easy target defensively in the playoffs. Unclear just how much value he'll provide when it counts. It's a risk. Possibly one worth taking (his defence isn't truly abysmal, just subpar), but I'm definitely hesitant on the pick package.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don't like this framing.

It's 4 picks, one every other year.

We have dealt a lot of our firsts since Masai has been here so it's really not that far off our current course.

2013 no pick
2014 pick
2015 pick
2016 pick
2017 pick
2018 no pick
2019 no pick
2020 pick
2021 pick
2022 no pick

So in the past 5 drafts we've only had 2 first round picks.

Saying we're going deep on 7 years of unprotected picks is disigneous when it's really every other year for 7 years and only 4 picks, we'd still have 3 picks over that time frame, which is a higher pick rate than we have had the last 5 years.

Mitchell is young, signed long term, and very very good. I think he'd be worth it.

I agree with you but those were one off deals rather than one mega deal. I do not know about mitchell I have flipped away from him oncei really dug into the mega numbers

[Limited Upside]

I'm sure that will work out great. Disgruntled superstar, Kyrie Irving with free agency coming up and the fragile Ben Simmons, all led by a coach that looks like he desperately wants out of there and a GM who is almost certainly going to be fired once he cleans up his own mess. Sounds like a recipe for success.

Oh, I'm not suggesting it will turn out great. But it's already a mess and the front office seems to be holding firm on what it wants as a return. It can only go two ways from here: they lower their demands, or they go into the season with a dumpster fire that they hope will get better once the games start.

[LJ2]

I'd pass on that. Mitchell is a sieve defensively, if you trade for him you need every bit of defensive backbone all over the roster to cover for him. I doubt there is any scenario where the Jazz get enough from the Raps and the Raps are happy to send it.

A sieve in comparison to Trent? That's who he would be replacing in the line up.

Jazz have been hovering around as a top 10 defense the last few years even with Mitchell so not too concerned about the Raps dipping there. Also I would take into consideration how hard Mitchell would have had to work on offense with the Jazz. Other than Clarkson coming off the bench that team was pretty void of players that can get their own shots. He wouldn't have to work so hard to get buckets with the Raps with so many options so perhaps would be able to focus more on his defense.

And on offense he seems pretty impressive. Has only upped his game in the playoffs.

Agree with what you've said about Jazz likely not interested in the Raptors' package of picks. They probably wouldn't be interested in quality players like OG and Trent in the midst of a rebuild anyhow.

[golden]

How does this square with KD publicly saying he wasn't getting involved in the Irving talks? If you are correct, and you may very well be, then Durant should have demanded to be at the table in the Irving talks. Now, maybe everyone knew all this and Brooklyn didn't care anymore given all the Irving crap but it again goes to show that Durant's engineering of all this was terrible from the outset.

There were a ton of reports that Kyrie was using KD leaving as threat and leverage during his contract negotiations, despite anything KD might have said publicly. I mean, would you expect him to say that if it's true? lol. It's almost as if the Nets called their bluff... and KD called their bluff and followed through with the trade request immediately.

The threat/leverage narrative all fits perfectly with the wonderful new player empowerment ethos that has taken NBA superstars by storm. They tried to flex a bit too hard on a billionaire, and they got some unexpected push back for the first time in their careers... is how I'm reading it. Basically trying to strong-arm Joe Tsai into cutting a huge cheque to a guy that's sabotaging the franchise. They did the same thing to get DeAndre Jordan paid, and also to blow valuable assets to bring in Harden. Maybe KD felt justified because there was a broken promise to him... but the team is also justified in having qualms about signing Kyrie long-term. 100's of millions isn't chump change, even to billionaires.

[Beneperez]

It will probably come out later, but when KD signed his extension, he might have received some type of implied promise from the Nets ownership that they would keep Kyrie/KD core together for the duration of KD's contract. Not signing Kyrie long-term might be viewed as the Nets breaking that agreement; hence, the justification for the immediate trade demand... as soon as long-term negotiations with Kyrie fell apart. The timing was too coincidental.

Well said and I think this is 100% how KD views it.