The Raptors and KD. Let's discuss.

[DanH]

A sieve in comparison to Trent? That's who he would be replacing in the line up.

Jazz have been hovering around as a top 10 defense the last few years even with Mitchell so not too concerned about the Raps dipping there. Also I would take into consideration how hard Mitchell would have had to work on offense with the Jazz. Other than Clarkson coming off the bench that team was pretty void of players that can get their own shots. He wouldn't have to work so hard to get buckets with the Raps with so many options so perhaps would be able to focus more on his defense.

And on offense he seems pretty impressive. Has only upped his game in the playoffs.

Agree with what you've said about Jazz likely not interested in the Raptors' package of picks. They probably wouldn't be interested in quality players like OG and Trent in the midst of a rebuild anyhow.

Yes, a sieve compared to Trent. Trent at least measures out as a decent defender based on his disruption, even though he's definitely a target (as we saw) in the playoffs.

Mitchell doesn't even have that part. Just a target through and through. Yes, maybe Nick can coach him up to be a solid defender. But it's a risk, and should be noted as such when you talk about the sort of pick package that would likely be required.

Also, the Jazz have had Rudy freaking Gobert, of course they've been a top 10 defence. Not that it held up in the playoffs when that porous perimeter defence has consistently been their downfall.

[A.I]

A sieve in comparison to Trent? That's who he would be replacing in the line up.

Jazz have been hovering around as a top 10 defense the last few years even with Mitchell so not too concerned about the Raps dipping there. Also I would take into consideration how hard Mitchell would have had to work on offense with the Jazz. Other than Clarkson coming off the bench that team was pretty void of players that can get their own shots. He wouldn't have to work so hard to get buckets with the Raps with so many options so perhaps would be able to focus more on his defense.

And on offense he seems pretty impressive. Has only upped his game in the playoffs.

Agree with what you've said about Jazz likely not interested in the Raptors' package of picks. They probably wouldn't be interested in quality players like OG and Trent in the midst of a rebuild anyhow.

Thats all Gobert. People vastly underrate him defensively because of what they saw in the Playoffs.

[golden]

Thats all Gobert. People vastly underrate him defensively because of what they saw in the Playoffs.

If all it takes to minimize Gobert's impact is to go 5-out with guys like Nic Batum, Marcus Morris and Maxi Kleber, then maybe he is being rated properly. Raptors & Nurse are all about the playoffs, no?

[slaw]

The threat/leverage narrative all fits perfectly with the wonderful new player empowerment ethos that has taken NBA superstars by storm. They tried to flex a bit too hard on a billionaire, and they got some unexpected push back for the first time in their careers... is how I'm reading it. Basically trying to strong-arm Joe Tsai into cutting a huge cheque to a guy that's sabotaging the franchise. They did the same thing to get DeAndre Jordan paid, and also to blow valuable assets to bring in Harden. Maybe KD felt justified because there was a broken promise to him... but the team is also justified in having qualms about signing Kyrie long-term. 100's of millions isn't chump change, even to billionaires.

I don't disagree. Again, this all goes back to Durant wanting to lead his own super team and fucking it all up, then wanting out when the going got rough.

[A.I]

If all it takes to minimize Gobert's impact is to go 5-out with guys like Nic Batum, Marcus Morris and Maxi Kleber, then maybe he is being rated properly. Raptors & Nurse are all about the playoffs, no?

Well when you're constantly in no man's land from having to help on drives because your perimeter defenders like Mitchell can't defend, and having to close out on the shooter you're guarding, its easy to put a scheme together to exploit that.

Thats how the scheme goes. Play 5-out, drive on their perimeter defenders, force Gobert to collapse, kick out to the shooter and you get an open shot because Gobert helped on the drive and no one rotated to the shooter.

[Primer]

Mitchell is so much better than Trent on offense it more than makes up for their minor difference in defense, which I don't think there is any once Mitchell is on this team in Nurse's system.

Mitchell would be our best offensive player, and he's not one dimensional, he does it all, including passing which Trent is allergic to.

We've also seen Masai turn nearly every player we've dealt into picks or guys on rookie deals. We just got Precious for Lowry. We got 1sts for Bargnani and Vasquez. I have full faith Masai could keep us with a contending squad.

Utah is going to suck bad for a very long time if they lose Mitchell so I'm not worried about the swaps, they will keep their own pick every time.

They aren't a free agent destination so their only path to getting better than the Raptors is knocking it out of the park in the draft every year. We've seen lots of teams try that and they're all still terrible. See OKC for a perfect example.

The Raptors meanwhile will be a top tier contender every season. I have no doubt Masai can keep an elite team together. The only reason the championship squad dropped off is because it was built on old players, not guys in their early to mid 20s. The one thing Masai can't do is stop father time.

In the hypothetical world where Trent plus filler and picks gets you Mitchell I think you do it.

[golden]

I don't disagree. Again, this all goes back to Durant wanting to lead his own super team and fucking it all up, then wanting out when the going got rough.

But the Nets aren't letting KD "lead" his team, though. In the player empowerment world, that would mean ownership signing whoever TF Durant says you sign, to however long a contract he wants you to sign them. Like it or not, that's what the Nets ownership signed up for... hence the trade demand, since they've about-faced on giving up that power, going forward.

And, tbf, it's not KD really leading by himself. It's always been a caucus of 2, with him & Kyrie.

[Primer]

But the Nets aren't letting KD "lead" his team, though. In the player empowerment world, that would mean ownership signing whoever TF Durant says you sign, to however long a contract he wants you to sign them. Like it or not, that's what the Nets ownership signed up for... hence the trade demand, since they've about-faced on giving up that power, going forward.

And, tbf, it's not KD really leading by himself. It's always been a caucus of 2, with him & Kyrie.

I agree with you here, if the Nets resigned Kyrie there would be no trade demands, they'd be gearing up their new big 3 with KD, Irving, and Simmons. They screwed it up which is a very Nets thing to do.

[LJ2]

Yes, a sieve compared to Trent. Trent at least measures out as a decent defender based on his disruption, even though he's definitely a target (as we saw) in the playoffs.

Mitchell doesn't even have that part. Just a target through and through. Yes, maybe Nick can coach him up to be a solid defender. But it's a risk, and should be noted as such when you talk about the sort of pick package that would likely be required.

Also, the Jazz have had Rudy freaking Gobert, of course they've been a top 10 defence. Not that it held up in the playoffs when that porous perimeter defence has consistently been their downfall.

Yes Utah had Gobert and Toronto has multiple good defenders. Could the players we surround Mitchell with not make up for some of his weaknesses on that end similar to Gobert?

If you can get something similar form him on defense like what we got out of Trent then perhaps the benefit of his offense makes it worth while?

[A.I]

Mitchell is so much better than Trent on offense it more than makes up for their minor difference in defense, which I don't think there is any once Mitchell is on this team in Nurse's system.

Mitchell would be our best offensive player, and he's not one dimensional, he does it all, including passing which Trent is allergic to.

We've also seen Masai turn nearly every player we've dealt into picks or guys on rookie deals. We just got Precious for Lowry. We got 1sts for Bargnani and Vasquez. I have full faith Masai could keep us with a contending squad.

Utah is going to suck bad for a very long time if they lose Mitchell so I'm not worried about the swaps, they will keep their own pick every time.

They aren't a free agent destination so their only path to getting better than the Raptors is knocking it out of the park in the draft every year. We've seen lots of teams try that and they're all still terrible. See OKC for a perfect example.

The Raptors meanwhile will be a top tier contender every season. I have no doubt Masai can keep an elite team together. The only reason the championship squad dropped off is because it was built on old players, not guys in their early to mid 20s. The one thing Masai can't do is stop father time.

In the hypothetical world where Trent plus filler and picks gets you Mitchell I think you do it.

I think most people are okay with this package. If its anything more like trading OG and Gary then no thanks.

[LJ2]

Thats all Gobert. People vastly underrate him defensively because of what they saw in the Playoffs.

Agreed, he's a big difference maker. Do you think Mitchell on the Raptors, surrounded by FVV, Barnes, Siakam and Precious could be a similar situation? I think he would bring a lot of balance to our offense. He and FVV in the back court spreading the floor for Barnes and Siakam in the paint.

[A.I]

Agreed, he's a big difference maker. Do you think Mitchell on the Raptors, surrounded by FVV, Barnes, Siakam and Precious could be a similar situation? I think he would bring a lot of balance to our offense. He and FVV in the back court spreading the floor for Barnes and Siakam in the paint.

It could work considering the defenders we have. A new team and a coach like Nick could get the most out of him defensively in terms of effort.

[LJ2]

I think most people are okay with this package. If its anything more like trading OG and Gary then no thanks.

I think you have to include OG or FVV in a Trent trade for Mitchell. Don't think they can pay Mitchell and one of OG or FVV long term. Would be wild if they could and all Mitchell costs are Trent and a few picks.

[LJ2]

It could work considering the defenders we have. A new team and a coach like Nick could get the most out of him defensively in terms of effort.

And like I noted previously, he had to work like a dog on offense for Utah. He wouldn't need to on the Raps.

[DanH]

Mitchell is so much better than Trent on offense it more than makes up for their minor difference in defense, which I don't think there is any once Mitchell is on this team in Nurse's system.

Mitchell would be our best offensive player, and he's not one dimensional, he does it all, including passing which Trent is allergic to.

We've also seen Masai turn nearly every player we've dealt into picks or guys on rookie deals. We just got Precious for Lowry. We got 1sts for Bargnani and Vasquez. I have full faith Masai could keep us with a contending squad.

Utah is going to suck bad for a very long time if they lose Mitchell so I'm not worried about the swaps, they will keep their own pick every time.

They aren't a free agent destination so their only path to getting better than the Raptors is knocking it out of the park in the draft every year. We've seen lots of teams try that and they're all still terrible. See OKC for a perfect example.

The Raptors meanwhile will be a top tier contender every season. I have no doubt Masai can keep an elite team together. The only reason the championship squad dropped off is because it was built on old players, not guys in their early to mid 20s. The one thing Masai can't do is stop father time.

In the hypothetical world where Trent plus filler and picks gets you Mitchell I think you do it.

I don't think anyone is arguing whether Mitchell is an upgrade on Trent.

The question is whether he is a big enough upgrade and a good enough fit to be worth 7 years of pick control. Leaving aside any risk of him asking out or wanting to end up in LA or NY or whatever, which there have been rumblings of in Utah, though you are hoping winning (in the playoffs) fixes that.