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  • Primer wrote: View Post

    Disgree hard with this. Spurs have been trying to tank and if they had Casey they'd be bottom 4 in the league. Pop keeps them competing for the playoffs even with a bad roster.
    lol they beat out the lakers this year for a playin spot.

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    • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

      lol they beat out the lakers this year for a playin spot.
      Well they're probably joining the Wembanyama sweepstake this year.

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      • A.I wrote: View Post

        Coaching shines when the team is great, doesn't mean any coach can lead that team to be great. Coaches won't carry a bad team to wins by just coaching, but it can enhance a good to great team.

        In the Raptors' case, the margin for error in the Sixers series in 2019 was so slim that I'm not sure Casey would have won that series as the coach.

        As for Lebron, he is one of the few players where coaching probably doesn't matter.
        It's hard to prove because even "bad" coaches have won titles. We don't really know what Casey would have done with Kawhi or Gasol. We can assume he would have failed, because we saw him for years failing. But he also never had a super star on his squad. The Sixers had Brett Brown as a coach who many thought was awful as well.. and almost pulled out a second round win over those same Raptors.. if it wasn't for a few bounces going the other team's way (well and a potential O/T).

        In the NBA it's all about the talent IMO. You give any coach a super star, or a really talented team and they can win it. Udoka is a first time, rookie head coach that led this team to the finals. You put him on the Hornets, Wizards, Knicks or Pacers and I don't think he'd have the same success. And I don't think Stevens is now a bad coach because he couldn't get it done. Spoelstra who many love, failed to make the playoffs until he was gifted Jimmy Butler.

        I do respect coach's that have changed basketball. Kerr revitalized the program in Golden State to change the way the game is played. But he tailor made that program for his super star. And he proved to suck really bad (ie, worst team in the league) when that same super star was hurt.

        In 2019, Nurse sat Kawhi too long in game 1 against Orlando and lost. He had to come back and win against both the 76ers and Bucks. He played Fred too much against the 76ers and that almost cost them. He almost did the same against the Bucks, but it lucked out. He got some fortunate injury luck against the Warriors. He couldn't motivate Pascal to play better or sit him (or Gasol) in the bubble, or find a way to neutralize Kemba who was destroying them. He was down 0-3 against the 76ers recently, and was scheming hard against Harden when he didn't have to. Played Fred who was a liability due to his injuries. Remember the out of bound decision when Embiid got that game winning 3 with Fred as his lone defender? Got blown out in the 2nd half of game 6 when the game was basically tied at half time.

        I mean he played McCaw like 25mpg for no reason at all in 2020. And we had lots of depth that year.

        Nurse is imperfect, just like Casey was. Nurse just gut lucky in 2019 to get a super star. Casey never had that luxury.

        I just like everyone was puzzled at Casey's decisions.. really he's going to put Bebe into the game? Or have CJ Miles cover Kevin Love for a few plays.. but we also love our Raptors and don't want to see them lose and we dissect every possession. And they get magnified when you lose.

        Casey with DeMar and Kyle had the best regular season in the East.. and was playing in an ECF game. Pops (who many think is the GCOAT) couldn't make the playoffs with DeMar. DeMar transformed himself into an MVP caliber player this past season, and yet Chicago still lost in the first round. Casey did a lot with what he was given IMO.

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        • DanH wrote: View Post

          We have no evidence Casey even plays Serge at C, let alone is willing to push him to a bench role, which was absolutely crucial. As was shrinking the rotation in the 76ers series, another thing I doubt he does.

          One thing I can say for sure - Casey was quite capable of generating an extra loss or two every playoff round even in circumstances where it didn't seem possible. We did not have that margin in the chip run.
          We have no evidence of anything, because Casey didn't have Gasol or Kawhi to coach. The only backup center Masai had given Nurse on that roster was Eric Moreland. Maybe if Casey felt desperate he would have thrown in him for 2 minutes, like he did with Bebe against the Cavs, but I mean if he did it would have been in one game for a short period of time. Masai essentially took away Monroe to duck the tax, so Nurse only had Serge as a backup those playoffs. So I don't see Casey screwing that one up.

          As for shrinking the rotation.. it was a great team. who was Casey going to throw in? Jeremy Lin, Jodie Meeks, or that dude that became a meme in that Kawhi shot? Like who are we talking? Case even with his rigid line ups would have worked.. we had a great team.. so make it rigid. Who cares?

          As for creating extra losses.. Nurse did that too. I went over a few highlights in my previous post.

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post

            We have no evidence of anything, because Casey didn't have Gasol or Kawhi to coach. The only backup center Masai had given Nurse on that roster was Eric Moreland. Maybe if Casey felt desperate he would have thrown in him for 2 minutes, like he did with Bebe against the Cavs, but I mean if he did it would have been in one game for a short period of time. Masai essentially took away Monroe to duck the tax, so Nurse only had Serge as a backup those playoffs. So I don't see Casey screwing that one up.

            As for shrinking the rotation.. it was a great team. who was Casey going to throw in? Jeremy Lin, Jodie Meeks, or that dude that became a meme in that Kawhi shot? Like who are we talking? Case even with his rigid line ups would have worked.. we had a great team.. so make it rigid. Who cares?

            As for creating extra losses.. Nurse did that too. I went over a few highlights in my previous post.
            Every single time Casey screwed up a playoff series with insane rotations, it was something that most people didn't see coming, so you not seeing him screw up any particular choice is actually not a strong argument at all that he wouldn't have screwed it up. He certainly would have.

            I for one am very happy we didn't get the chance to see exactly how he would have screwed it up, because I'd much rather have a chip to our name than to be able to point concretely to that evidence for the purpose of this discussion.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

              I think Nurse is for sure top 5 in the NBA right now.

              Pop

              Kerr

              Nurse

              Spo

              Udoka
              What about coach's like Jenkins or Monty Williams, or Coach Bud, or Tye Lue or Jason Kidd? Every one of these coach's got farther than Nurse and Pops did this year. And if you think talent matters, then that's my point about this whole thing.

              Give any coach the talent and they will likely be okay.

              Nash was just given a really dysfunctional team this season. If KD's big toe wasn't on the line, they'd likely have a chip as well.

              Comment


              • DanH wrote: View Post

                Every single time Casey screwed up a playoff series with insane rotations, it was something that most people didn't see coming, so you not seeing him screw up any particular choice is actually not a strong argument at all that he wouldn't have screwed it up. He certainly would have.

                I for one am very happy we didn't get the chance to see exactly how he would have screwed it up, because I'd much rather have a chip to our name than to be able to point concretely to that evidence for the purpose of this discussion.
                Casey also didn't have great talent. He was given a flawed roster. So he had to work with what he was given. When one of your better players is not producing you may have to put in something crazy to try and make it work. That's what kept happening. Yet he still got to an ECF and won 2 games against a heavyweight team.

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                • Coaches matter more in the Playoffs. You can kind of coast by the regular season with the same schemes if you have a decent team. You play the same teams over and over in the Playoffs and have to adjust game to game or in game.

                  Casey was part of the ECF run with the Kyle and Demar duo, but he was also part of a few pretty bad series losses against the Cavs and the Wizards sweep. All 3 series going into it with the expectations that at the very least it would have been competitive.

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                  • Anyone that's still questioning Casey ,
                    please explain why we always lose to his less talented squad.
                    Don't say luck coz it ain't

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                    • Since Kawhi left, Nurse’s playoff record is:

                      - first round win vs the Nets G-League team
                      - missed playoffs completely
                      - first round exit… almost swept

                      That’s it. 1 cream-puff series win, without Kawhi. Make of that what you will.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Since Kawhi left, Nurse’s playoff record is:

                        - first round win vs the Nets G-League team
                        - missed playoffs completely
                        - first round exit… almost swept

                        That’s it. 1 cream-puff series win, without Kawhi. Make of that what you will.
                        fire him.

                        Comment


                        • A.I wrote: View Post
                          Coaches matter more in the Playoffs. You can kind of coast by the regular season with the same schemes if you have a decent team. You play the same teams over and over in the Playoffs and have to adjust game to game or in game.

                          Casey was part of the ECF run with the Kyle and Demar duo, but he was also part of a few pretty bad series losses against the Cavs and the Wizards sweep. All 3 series going into it with the expectations that at the very least it would have been competitive.
                          Talent is what matters really. Lowry and DeMar played like crap in that series against Washington.. and Masai gave Casey a lot of bad defenders like Vasquez and Lou Williams. Lowry was hurt in 2017 if I recall (that was the PJ Tucker year I think). And in 2018 it was a debacle, but we lost two really close games. JV couldn't get a put back in the first game. Lebron hit a miraculous shot over OG in game 3. DeMar just disappeared in that series and was basically unplayable.

                          But if Casey had Kawhi and Marc instead of DeMar and JV I suspect he would have done better. Nurse also didn't have to play against Lebron as he went out west. Lucky him.

                          Comment


                          • planetmars wrote: View Post

                            What about coach's like Jenkins or Monty Williams, or Coach Bud, or Tye Lue or Jason Kidd? Every one of these coach's got farther than Nurse and Pops did this year. And if you think talent matters, then that's my point about this whole thing.

                            Give any coach the talent and they will likely be okay.

                            Nash was just given a really dysfunctional team this season. If KD's big toe wasn't on the line, they'd likely have a chip as well.
                            I was going to add Monty but I said 5 lol so I stopped...



                            and since you are asking me specifically.... Jason Kidd is not a good coach especially given how he has treated his players in other situations and how badly I think "luka" ball ... If the mavs moved the ball around more...yes they need other guys beyond luka but that is a big thing holding them back.



                            Monty of course is great..... The thing is they have different teams..... I just said coaching acts as a multiplier. In terms of Nurse... Nurse is amazing at experimenting especially defensively throughout the season and that creates datapoints and familiarity when you need to randomly try something in a tight spot in a playoff game.


                            Not every coach does that...




                            But yes I put Nurse above Ty Lue... and Bud doesn't really make the adjustments he needs to to be able to close out series faster... he has his game plan and he LARGELY sticks to it.



                            I also think is a bit silly to shift my coach rankings every year... You are free to do that but that isn't how I personally rank coaches
                            Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Sat Jul 16, 2022, 09:32 PM.

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                            • golden wrote: View Post
                              Since Kawhi left, Nurse’s playoff record is:

                              - first round win vs the Nets G-League team
                              - missed playoffs completely
                              - first round exit… almost swept

                              That’s it. 1 cream-puff series win, without Kawhi. Make of that what you will.
                              what are you suggesting?

                              Comment


                              • planetmars wrote: View Post

                                Casey also didn't have great talent. He was given a flawed roster. So he had to work with what he was given. When one of your better players is not producing you may have to put in something crazy to try and make it work. That's what kept happening. Yet he still got to an ECF and won 2 games against a heavyweight team.
                                My goodness do we have different memories of Casey's history here. He only started doing crazy stuff after the smart stuff wasn't working? Is that the argument? It's dead wrong, if that's the case.

                                Casey was a perfectly fine regular season coach who was outcoached every playoff series of his career here. Why anyone would feel the need to imagine the glories our championship team night have achieved under that leadership is beyond me.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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