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  • Hotshot wrote: View Post

    Marks is a GM capable of building a competitive team that isn't disputed but there is next level tier to this job as well.

    Masai was able to convince a superstar like Kawhi to come to Toronto for one year (a destination that wasn't on his wish list) and throughout the year kept tabs on everything to ensure this was going to work and it has (even though the locker room may have been more volatile then was seen throughout the year but nothing was leaked until the end).

    Marks did not recruit Durant + Irving. These two wanted to come to Brooklyn. Marks fortune became a liability in which he could not handle. The other superstar he brought in was Harden and that did not work very well. Lots of assets were lost in getting Harden and than more assets were quickly lost in getting Simmons in which he came injured and unable to help the Nets in the playoffs (you don't get many shots at the title so he had better gotten it more right than wrong). Not only that but hiring an inexperienced coach in Nash did not work very well with the current squad. Not to mention but caving in for Durant demands to play with Deandre Jordan instead of Jarret Allen and than trading him in the Harden trade also proved to be a bad deal. Pissing Durant off in Marks inability to commit to Irving long terms even though he told him they were a package deal didn't help either. You usually can't teach those things as a GM, you have to learn to deal with those problems and still manage to come out with the best outcome you can. Marks has failed to do so.

    So throughout such a short time Marks has lost the plot to appease Durant/Irving and came short in 2 post seasons with the Nets who should have been competing to the title but had lots of unfortunate injuries as well . The fault always lies on the person in charge of the operation for better or worse.
    You nailed it here, Marks is not a good GM.

    KD and Kyrie fell into his lap, they were coming to Brooklyn no matter who the GM was, and he screwed it up.

    Excellent chance Simmons doesn't pan out as well so another big screw up by Marks.

    The best offer we've heard for KD is Brown from the Celtics. If they do that trade I don't think they are even a play in contender. Brown would likely come with one or two end of first round picks, so nothing to truly rebuild with.

    They could also move Kyrie for Westbrook further compounding the disaster.

    I hope Masai stays ready to pounce. KD is gonna be traded on the cheap.

    Comment


    • Hotshot wrote: View Post

      Marks is a GM capable of building a competitive team that isn't disputed but there is next level tier to this job as well.

      Masai was able to convince a superstar like Kawhi to come to Toronto for one year (a destination that wasn't on his wish list) and throughout the year kept tabs on everything to ensure this was going to work and it has (even though the locker room may have been more volatile then was seen throughout the year but nothing was leaked until the end).

      Marks did not recruit Durant + Irving. These two wanted to come to Brooklyn. Marks fortune became a liability in which he could not handle. The other superstar he brought in was Harden and that did not work very well. Lots of assets were lost in getting Harden and than more assets were quickly lost in getting Simmons in which he came injured and unable to help the Nets in the playoffs (you don't get many shots at the title so he had better gotten it more right than wrong). Not only that but hiring an inexperienced coach in Nash did not work very well with the current squad. Not to mention but caving in for Durant demands to play with Deandre Jordan instead of Jarret Allen and than trading him in the Harden trade also proved to be a bad deal. Pissing Durant off in Marks inability to commit to Irving long terms even though he told him they were a package deal didn't help either. You usually can't teach those things as a GM, you have to learn to deal with those problems and still manage to come out with the best outcome you can. Marks has failed to do so.

      So throughout such a short time Marks has lost the plot to appease Durant/Irving and came short in 2 post seasons with the Nets who should have been competing to the title but had lots of unfortunate injuries as well . The fault always lies on the person in charge of the operation for better or worse.
      When a team is looking for a GM maybe they look at Marks as not being able to keep a couple of head cases happy. They more likely will look at Marks as a guy who was able to bring in superstar talent. Remember he also got the picks from Philly for the Harden trade as well. Bringing in superstar talent on it's own is a huge selling point as there are a lot of franchises that have had trouble doing that. I really doubt they go into details of Kyrie's contract status and how that impacted other players' emotions.

      I mean you don't have to look much further than our very own Bryan Colangelo or Vlade Divac's with the Kings to understand how poorly managed some teams have been and still they find work and continue to find work. Marks will be alright.

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      • LJ2 wrote: View Post

        He botched what exactly? Marks came into a situation where the organization was coming off the heels of having mortgaged their short and long-term future with the KG and Pierce version of the Nets. He sorted things out and pivoted rather quickly into another contending team. Any organization looking to hire a guy that works my unit miracles will be interested in hiring Marks.

        Nobody could have anticipated what a nut job Kyrie would be.

        The combination of KD and Kyrie will still be enough to get someone interested. Toss in Simmons and some team dwelling in perpetual mediocrity will make that phone call.
        A good GM is one that makes his players happy.
        Especially the superstars.
        Like Giannis staying in Milwaukee.

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        • golden wrote: View Post

          KD missed a whole season due to injury and the league somehow survived. On the contrary... the NBA is reportedly looking at signing a massive new TV deal. No single player is that critical to the insatiable demand for NBA media rights these days. Not even Lebron. Curry missed almost a whole season too. And then there's Kawhi, who plays every other season.

          Is Adam Silver going to make a courtesy call to Joe Tsai and KD's reps to say: "hey guys... can y'all just work this out?" Probably. But that's about it. The whole issue of "healthy" players under contract holding out and demanding trades, etc... is a bigger issue that will need to be addressed in the next CBA.
          It's not about the size of a new tv deal or selling ads or ratings. Having one of your top players out cause he is injured sucks but that's part of the deal in sports. Having one of your top guys out cause he won't play for his team and the team can't trade him cause they have ludicrous demands is another ball of wax. The league and its stakeholders will want this to end at some point.

          Comment


          • LJ2 wrote: View Post

            When a team is looking for a GM maybe they look at Marks as not being able to keep a couple of head cases happy. They more likely will look at Marks as a guy who was able to bring in superstar talent. Remember he also got the picks from Philly for the Harden trade as well. Bringing in superstar talent on it's own is a huge selling point as there are a lot of franchises that have had trouble doing that. I really doubt they go into details of Kyrie's contract status and how that impacted other players' emotions.

            I mean you don't have to look much further than our very own Bryan Colangelo or Vlade Divac's with the Kings to understand how poorly managed some teams have been and still they find work and continue to find work. Marks will be alright.
            Marks didn't bring in the superstar talent though. So not something he would be able to replicate anywhere else since he didn't even do it. KD and Kyrie themselves decided they wanted to play together and they wanted to do it in Brooklyn. Marks had zero to do with it.

            I'm not saying he won't ever get another GM job if the Nets let him go, just that he's not a good GM. As you noted lots of bad GMs keep getting work despite being bad at their job.

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            • Primer wrote: View Post

              Marks didn't bring in the superstar talent though. So not something he would be able to replicate anywhere else since he didn't even do it. KD and Kyrie themselves decided they wanted to play together and they wanted to do it in Brooklyn. Marks had zero to do with it.
              AGREE.


              LJ2 wrote: View Post

              When a team is looking for a GM maybe they look at Marks as not being able to keep a couple of head cases happy. They more likely will look at Marks as a guy who was able to bring in superstar talent. Remember he also got the picks from Philly for the Harden trade as well. Bringing in superstar talent on it's own is a huge selling point as there are a lot of franchises that have had trouble doing that. I really doubt they go into details of Kyrie's contract status and how that impacted other players' emotions.

              I mean you don't have to look much further than our very own Bryan Colangelo or Vlade Divac's with the Kings to understand how poorly managed some teams have been and still they find work and continue to find work. Marks will be alright.
              I am glad you brought Colangelo into this because he is exactly who I think Marks became in the last 2 seasons. If you don't remember when Colangelo came in to the Raptors organization, he too cleaned up some of the useless contracts from the previous regime failed roster and was setting this team to a start on a very promising path with the signing of Anthony Parker & Garbajosa. But afterwards there were compounding levels of small mistakes (not drafting the BPA in most of his drafts, giving away draft picks in trades like they were candy, overpaying role players huge sums of money ie) that were created after a 1 year successful run into a mediocre treadmill team in which he never understood how to get out from. Marks is also finding himself in a situation he doesn't understand how to get out from because of all the little compounding mistakes (I mentioned in my previous post) that resulted in this debacle and by dragging this and hoping for a miracle (KD comes back or they find an amazing package) shows me that he is still swimming against the current. There are only a handful of top executives in this league (Masai, Riley, Presti to mention a few names) who would have seen the potential issues with the Nets on the horizon ( if they were in that position) and I believe would have acted swiftly in a way that the situation today wouldn't have blown up the way it did.

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              • Primer wrote: View Post

                Marks didn't bring in the superstar talent though. So not something he would be able to replicate anywhere else since he didn't even do it. KD and Kyrie themselves decided they wanted to play together and they wanted to do it in Brooklyn. Marks had zero to do with it.

                I'm not saying he won't ever get another GM job if the Nets let him go, just that he's not a good GM. As you noted lots of bad GMs keep getting work despite being bad at their job.
                I guess this is an agree to disagree moment but I think Marks came into a bad situation and cleared the books so that they could bring in those superstars. That's good GMing as well to have your team's finances ready for moves like that.

                And yeah KD and Kyrie are superstars, they go where they want to go like every superstar does. Marks had to clear the space and assets stocked to pull it off.

                I think he did everything within reason to keep his stars happy, but ultimately he had to draw a line. He put the good of the team over that of Kyrie and KD took offense to that. Not really much Marks could do there. Was Masai a bad GM for not bending to Kawai's wishes to bring another star to Toronto?

                Not saying he's without flaw but he's not a bad GM because of this fiasco imo. Like when Kyrie starts talking about running the team along with the owner and GM on national TV, what do you say to that? There has to be a limit to player empowerment and you can't trust a guy with Kyrie's history.

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                • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                  I guess this is an agree to disagree moment but I think Marks came into a bad situation and cleared the books so that they could bring in those superstars. That's good GMing as well to have your team's finances ready for moves like that.

                  And yeah KD and Kyrie are superstars, they go where they want to go like every superstar does. Marks had to clear the space and assets stocked to pull it off.

                  I think he did everything within reason to keep his stars happy, but ultimately he had to draw a line. He put the good of the team over that of Kyrie and KD took offense to that. Not really much Marks could do there. Was Masai a bad GM for not bending to Kawai's wishes to bring another star to Toronto?

                  Not saying he's without flaw but he's not a bad GM because of this fiasco imo. Like when Kyrie starts talking about running the team along with the owner and GM on national TV, what do you say to that? There has to be a limit to player empowerment and you can't trust a guy with Kyrie's history.
                  1000% Kawhi didn't leave because of anything Masai did or did not do. There was no way he was staying in Toronto.

                  Marks could have done a lot of things differently to keep his stars happy. That was his job once he brought them in. He failed and didn't even get a finals appearance to show for it.
                  Last edited by Primer; Wed Aug 17, 2022, 08:58 PM.

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                  • Primer wrote: View Post

                    1000% Kawhi didn't leave because of anything Masai did or did not do. There was no way he was staying in Toronto.

                    Marks could have done a lot of things differently to keep his stars happy. That was his job once he brought them in. He failed and didn't even get a finals appearance to show for it.
                    In a sit-down interview with ESPN’s Rachel Nichols, Leonard said he was “very close” to signing with one of the other two teams he was considering — the Los Angeles Lakers or Toronto Raptors — but the lure of playing alongside Paul George sealed the deal for the Clippers.

                    “I was very close. Real close,” Leonard said. “But when (the Clippers) presented the opportunity of playing with Paul it was easy, it was a yes. I said let’s get it going.
                    https://www.nba.com/news/kawhi-leona...season-process


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                    • And Masai still chose wisely.

                      3 years of PG & Kawhi together didn't yield a championship team. Remember Kawhi thought this team was not good enough to compete with him the following season but it was. Instead Kawhi decide to take matters to his own hands & be a GM (a position he knows nothing about).

                      Kawhi did not care about being in Toronto but ultimately L.A was his first choice & if he was somehow unhappy with the direction of the Clippers, he would have finessed the Raptors organization to cater to his shady uncle Dennis in such a way that it would put him in charge of many decisions & ultimately I believe would destroy Masai's legacy + the Raptors.

                      A weaker president/Gm would agree to it but good thing Masai didn't.


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                      • and it would have been a bad move... we would have had to take westbrook too because we didn't have a young asset like SGA at the time... okc literally required almost a decade worth of assets... and where has it gotten them? we would have had to give up siakam, and lowry and likely fred... potentially OG too to make it all work... that clippers team has been perpetually injured.....

                        It would have been exciting for some but I personally wasn't into it because we had enough to continue to compete ... again I was perfectly fine with him signing a 1+1 because he already had a degenerative muscle problem.


                        Kawhi didn't think this was enough as Hotshot pointed out and tried to strong arm... I don't think we should ever be seriously gambling our future without a pivot point. Espeically with the new player empowerment movement.

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                        • Hotshot wrote: View Post

                          And Masai still chose wisely.

                          3 years of PG & Kawhi together didn't yield a championship team. Remember Kawhi thought this team was not good enough to compete with him the following season but it was. Instead Kawhi decide to take matters to his own hands & be a GM (a position he knows nothing about).

                          Kawhi did not care about being in Toronto but ultimately L.A was his first choice & if he was somehow unhappy with the direction of the Clippers, he would have finessed the Raptors organization to cater to his shady uncle Dennis in such a way that it would put him in charge of many decisions & ultimately I believe would destroy Masai's legacy + the Raptors.

                          A weaker president/Gm would agree to it but good thing Masai didn't.

                          And yet you think Marks did a poor job by not signing Kyrie long term even though he spent all season doing things that were detrimental his team? What exactly do you think he would have done once he got that contract? Do a complete 180 and become a model superstar?

                          Again, Marks isn't without flaw, but you guys are making it sound like he's awful based on this one incident.

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                          • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                            And yet you think Marks did a poor job by not signing Kyrie long term even though he spent all season doing things that were detrimental his team? What exactly do you think he would have done once he got that contract? Do a complete 180 and become a model superstar?

                            Again, Marks isn't without flaw, but you guys are making it sound like he's awful based on this one incident.
                            It's not about 1 decision but many decisions & indecisions that brought this down on him. He took Durant/Irving together & he needed to understand the consequences.

                            Comment


                            • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                              And yet you think Marks did a poor job by not signing Kyrie long term even though he spent all season doing things that were detrimental his team? What exactly do you think he would have done once he got that contract? Do a complete 180 and become a model superstar?

                              Again, Marks isn't without flaw, but you guys are making it sound like he's awful based on this one incident.
                              Yep. Marks did exactly what KD and Kyrie wanted. He signed DeAndre Jordan. He brought in James Harden. He traded away Levert and Allen. He gave up massive draft picks.

                              But… KD, and especially Kyrie, didn’t hold up their end of the bargain: win championships.

                              In fact, Kyrie scared off Harden to the point where he took the drastic step of making a trade demand… holding Marks hostage with the threat of losing him for nothing, which would be a disastrous waste of all those assets they used to acquire the guy that KD and Kyrie wanted.

                              I suppose the main arguments against Marks could be the hiring of a rookie coach, Steve Nash… who has no track record of winning any championships at any level and trading Harden for Simmons instead of maybe getting back players who could have immediately helped them in the playoffs last year, like CJ McCollum, RoCo and Powell. Those are smaller quibbles, though.

                              Should he have just signed Kyrie to the long term deal? Probably. It was a dumb move to flip flop now. But I think that was a Joe Tsai being fed up directive that Marks didn’t have any leeway in.

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                              • golden wrote: View Post

                                Yep. Marks did exactly what KD and Kyrie wanted. He signed DeAndre Jordan. He brought in James Harden. He traded away Levert and Allen. He gave up massive draft picks.

                                But… KD, and especially Kyrie, didn’t hold up their end of the bargain: win championships.

                                In fact, Kyrie scared off Harden to the point where he took the drastic step of making a trade demand… holding Marks hostage with the threat of losing him for nothing, which would be a disastrous waste of all those assets they used to acquire the guy that KD and Kyrie wanted.

                                I suppose the main arguments against Marks could be the hiring of a rookie coach, Steve Nash… who has no track record of winning any championships at any level and trading Harden for Simmons instead of maybe getting back players who could have immediately helped them in the playoffs last year, like CJ McCollum, RoCo and Powell. Those are smaller quibbles, though.

                                Should he have just signed Kyrie to the long term deal? Probably. It was a dumb move to flip flop now. But I think that was a Joe Tsai being fed up directive that Marks didn’t have any leeway in.
                                That's the main flaw i saw with the job Marks did, in that he probably could have found a better cast of role players to put around KD and Kyrie. Ultimately though it might have been fine if Kyrie didn't drive Harden away. Instead they went into the playoffs down one superstar and with little chemistry not having played through a full season of Kyrie.

                                Even the Harden trade was sort of out of Marsks' hands. Superstars play where they want to play and he wasn't going to be able to trade Harden for CJ if Harden didn't want to go to Portland. By all accounts Harden was going to force his way to Philly as he forced his way to Brooklyn.

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