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  • #46
    Kagemusha wrote: View Post

    From an all star to the bench.
    If that's not demotion, i don't know what is.
    Its called selfless which is a rarity these days

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    • #47
      The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

      i totally disagree
      I understand that, what I don't understand is why.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • #48
        DanH wrote: View Post

        I understand that, what I don't understand is why.
        Why not

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        • #49
          The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

          Why not
          Is that the logic? Why not bench the starting quality, all-star, all-defence point guard in favour of your less-defensively-capable prototypical 6th man microwave scoring guard? There are several reasons why not to in that description alone...
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • #50
            DanH wrote: View Post

            Is that the logic? Why not bench the starting quality, all-star, all-defence point guard in favour of your less-defensively-capable prototypical 6th man microwave scoring guard? There are several reasons why not to in that description alone...
            Hey DanH, off topic but how valid is this idea that Trent Jr. is a "prototypical 6th man microwave scoring guard"? Been hearing it a fair bit around here but I always thought of his strength being more of a catch and shoot player, and less of an isolation savant. He doesn't have the handles or off the dribble scoring ability of a Lou Will, J. Crawford or Jordan Clarkson type 6th man. He hardly ever goes to the rim.

            It feels more like someone said it at some point and everyone decided to run with it because it sounded good, but no real merit to it.

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            • #51
              LJ2 wrote: View Post

              Hey DanH, off topic but how valid is this idea that Trent Jr. is a "prototypical 6th man microwave scoring guard"? Been hearing it a fair bit around here but I always thought of his strength being more of a catch and shoot player, and less of an isolation savant. He doesn't have the handles or off the dribble scoring ability of a Lou Will, J. Crawford or Jordan Clarkson type 6th man. He hardly ever goes to the rim.

              It feels more like someone said it at some point and everyone decided to run with it because it sounded good, but no real merit to it.
              He was one of the best off the dribble shooters on the team last year, creating a lot of midrange and three point shots for himself. He's not really a three level scorer, his rim pressure is very limited and he's not a playmaker, so he can't leverage that into being a focal point of the offence in starting groups, but he could provide some high volume, average efficiency scoring in bench units that are often desperate for that.

              He does also shoot well in catch and shoot situations (who doesn't?). But lots of guys on the team can do that to some degree or another (Otto, Precious showed some nice flashes, OG especially, Fred of course is kind of both, even Pascal is pretty good in catch and shoot, heck even Thad hit hit spot up shots late in the year), very few can do what Gary does off the dribble as a shooter. That's his unique quality on the team, not the spot up shooting.

              There's a fair question to be asked about how the starters will perform without his self-creation, but I have a lot of faith in Pascal, Scottie and Fred being enough, and the spacing will be fine so long as Precious can build on last year and manage a mid-30's success rate (not even his 40% stuff from late in the year) from the corner. Fred off the ball more and Scottie on the ball more will make a big difference there too.

              Worth noting too that Gary wouldn't be alone on the bench, he'd be playing as the scorer beside whichever 1 or 2 of Pascal, Scottie and Fred are anchoring the bench at the time. So it's not like he'd lose all his spot up opportunities.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • #52
                As for his self creation efficacy, Gary had 94 possessions of isolation last year (about 1 a game), so you'd be ramping up the usage, but he scored 1 PPP on those plays, by far the best on the team among regulars. He had the second most PnR ball handler finishes on the team, with 0.87 PPP, pretty comparable to the top creators on the team (Pascal 0.88, Fred 0.93 - Scottie's 1.05 is hilarious but also much lower volume). He was 1 PPP on handoffs (about 1.5 a game). Between those three playtypes that's over 40% of Trent's offence last year (20% transition, 25% spot ups, 15% off screens and other miscellaneous off ball scoring).
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • #53
                  DanH wrote: View Post
                  As for his self creation efficacy, Gary had 94 possessions of isolation last year (about 1 a game), so you'd be ramping up the usage, but he scored 1 PPP on those plays, by far the best on the team among regulars. He had the second most PnR ball handler finishes on the team, with 0.87 PPP, pretty comparable to the top creators on the team (Pascal 0.88, Fred 0.93 - Scottie's 1.05 is hilarious but also much lower volume). He was 1 PPP on handoffs (about 1.5 a game). Between those three playtypes that's over 40% of Trent's offence last year (20% transition, 25% spot ups, 15% off screens and other miscellaneous off ball scoring).
                  1 isolation attempt a game doesn't sound like the making of a great microwave type scorer, but we shall see if 1) Trent ends up coming off the bench and if he does 2) how he does in that role. Numbers sound encouraging I think....though the comparison seems to always be among other Raps players who may not excel in that area either.

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                  • #54
                    DanH wrote: View Post

                    Is that the logic? Why not bench the starting quality, all-star, all-defence point guard in favour of your less-defensively-capable prototypical 6th man microwave scoring guard? There are several reasons why not to in that description alone...
                    Not my job to convince you. You went out of your way to open up a rabbit hole of a discussion that would not lead to nowhere but your defense of VanVleet.

                    But once again, not surprising coming from the same poster who was hell or high water convince that the team was better off starting Birch.

                    So let’s stick to our respective lanes

                    You starting VanVleet

                    Me ideally having VanVleet as the 6th man

                    we agree to disagree

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      LJ2 wrote: View Post

                      1 isolation attempt a game doesn't sound like the making of a great microwave type scorer, but we shall see if 1) Trent ends up coming off the bench and if he does 2) how he does in that role. Numbers sound encouraging I think....though the comparison seems to always be among other Raps players who may not excel in that area either.
                      I think you are focusing too much on the 1 possession a game of isolation and not enough on 40 full % of his offence coming as a creator. You can still run screen plays with bench players! Trent usually comes off a screen and uses that one step of separation to pull up over the defending big man.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • #56
                        The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                        Not my job to convince you. You went out of your way to open up a rabbit hole of a discussion that would not lead to nowhere but your defense of VanVleet.

                        But once again, not surprising coming from the same poster who was hell or high water convince that the team was better off starting Birch.

                        So let’s stick to our respective lanes

                        You starting VanVleet

                        Me ideally having VanVleet as the 6th man

                        we agree to disagree
                        So you have no interest in actually disclosing why you think Fred should come off the bench huh? All right...
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Having Trent come off the bench should way for some of our big lineups:

                          Scottie
                          Gary
                          Otto
                          Pascal
                          Boucher

                          Pascal
                          Gary
                          OG
                          Boucher
                          Precious

                          Just for the length on the court it would be quite nice to somehow minimize Fred and Gary's minutes on the court together, until Closing Time:

                          Fred
                          Gary
                          OG
                          Pascal
                          Scottie

                          #6thmanoftheyear

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                          • #58
                            SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                            Having Trent come off the bench should way for some of our big lineups:

                            Scottie
                            Gary
                            Otto
                            Pascal
                            Boucher

                            Pascal
                            Gary
                            OG
                            Boucher
                            Precious

                            Just for the length on the court it would be quite nice to somehow minimize Fred and Gary's minutes on the court together, until Closing Time:

                            Fred
                            Gary
                            OG
                            Pascal
                            Scottie

                            #6thmanoftheyear
                            I dont know if I would have Gary in the closing line up I would rather have Otto

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                            • #59
                              TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

                              I dont know if I would have Gary in the closing line up I would rather have Otto
                              We'll need to wait a bit before throwing Otto into our plans to that extent. Having Gary's bailout ability can be valuable late in games, and he'll be kept off ball in crunch time except in emergencies, which will limit the damage to the general offence on that end. Defensively, fair, but until we see how Otto holds up in our system probably best to hold off penciling him into anything but a bench role against bench players.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • #60
                                DanH wrote: View Post

                                We'll need to wait a bit before throwing Otto into our plans to that extent. Having Gary's bailout ability can be valuable late in games, and he'll be kept off ball in crunch time except in emergencies, which will limit the damage to the general offence on that end. Defensively, fair, but until we see how Otto holds up in our system probably best to hold off penciling him into anything but a bench role against bench players.
                                i am purely basing this on last year and on advanced metrics.. based on that my vote goes to otto but I understand your position.

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