Everything Bench Beauties

[DanH]

i am purely basing this on last year and on advanced metrics.. based on that my vote goes to otto but I understand your position.

By EPM Trent was a +2 and Otto was ~0. Which advanced metrics are you going by?

[TrueTorontoFan]

By EPM Trent was a +2 and Otto was ~0. Which advanced metrics are you going by?

crafted plus minus on both ends

[DanH]

crafted plus minus on both ends

Meh, they smash a bunch of stuff together regardless of its validity. Weighing real APM-adjacent stats the same as a boxscore aggregate like BPM is going to lead to some funky results.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Meh, they smash a bunch of stuff together regardless of its validity. Weighing real APM-adjacent stats the same as a boxscore aggregate like BPM is going to lead to some funky results.

how do you know that its not valid? have you tested its validity against other measures? Either way that is what I went with. I do think its fair to say Otto is a more well rounded player in terms of his offensive skill set and better defensively in my opinion

[DanH]

how do you know that its not valid? have you tested its validity against other measures? Either way that is what I went with. I do think its fair to say Otto is a more well rounded player in terms of his offensive skill set and better defensively in my opinion

BPM? The whole idea behind BPM is to try to correlate box score stats to APM and RAPM and it's an absolutely awful fit, probably because by definition impact numbers are trying to measure things that the box score does not.

Otto is quite possibly both of those things. I was just saying that advanced stats don't really say that. They are pretty comparable across the more well thought out APM approximators (EPM likes Gary by a lot, Raptor likes Otto a little more, DPM likes Otto a chunk more, Lebron has them close to tied) - but Otto's strength in those APM approximations is consistently on defence, as you'd expect, but which is also the least reliable measurement (even impact stats can capture offence more reliably than defence). Also worth noting that Gary played within the Raps' system for his numbers, we don't know what Otto's numbers would look like with the Raps as compared to on the Warriors.

Perfectly reasonable to prefer Otto, it's just not a clear cut obvious choice by the stats. And personally, I'd take the assumed hit in closing lineups (considering our small look did just fine later in games) if it helps us sell Trent on a bench role and avoids the small group starting.

[Kagemusha]

how do you know that its not valid? have you tested its validity against other measures? Either way that is what I went with. I do think its fair to say Otto is a more well rounded player in terms of his offensive skill set and better defensively in my opinion

Are you still talking late game situations here?

[golden]

BPM? The whole idea behind BPM is to try to correlate box score stats to APM and RAPM and it's an absolutely awful fit, probably because by definition impact numbers are trying to measure things that the box score does not.

Otto is quite possibly both of those things. I was just saying that advanced stats don't really say that. They are pretty comparable across the more well thought out APM approximators (EPM likes Gary by a lot, Raptor likes Otto a little more, DPM likes Otto a chunk more, Lebron has them close to tied) - but Otto's strength in those APM approximations is consistently on defence, as you'd expect, but which is also the least reliable measurement (even impact stats can capture offence more reliably than defence). Also worth noting that Gary played within the Raps' system for his numbers, we don't know what Otto's numbers would look like with the Raps as compared to on the Warriors.

Perfectly reasonable to prefer Otto, it's just not a clear cut obvious choice by the stats. And personally, I'd take the assumed hit in closing lineups (considering our small look did just fine later in games) if it helps us sell Trent on a bench role and avoids the small group starting.

If I had to pick one advanced stat, I'd probably go with LEBRON (formerly PIPM)... especially for defense (D-LEBRON). But why TF did they have to choose that name?

[SkywalkerAC]

If Gary's coming off the bench, and I think he should, I think you've got to close with him plus off-def, probably with Otto for that matter, some possessions. Good problem to have.

[SkywalkerAC]

Boucher as front-court bench spark should probably get more talk. That we can legit go:

Scottie
OG
Pascal
Boucher
Precious

With just the sub of Boucher for Fred, assuming Gary on the bench, is just nuts. The mobility of that frontcourt, plus the ball-skills of all of them, makes it entirely possible. Give em the clamps before you start coming in waves with Gary/Otto up next.

[Puffer]

If I had to pick one advanced stat, I'd probably go with LEBRON (formerly PIPM)... especially for defense (D-LEBRON). But why TF did they have to choose that name?

Maybe because they count flops...as non-impact stats.

[TrueTorontoFan]

If I had to pick one advanced stat, I'd probably go with LEBRON (formerly PIPM)... especially for defense (D-LEBRON). But why TF did they have to choose that name?

to be cute

[TrueTorontoFan]

So Gary for DLEBRON is -0.1 Otto is 1.8.


DBPM at least what I am looking at is 0.3 for GTJ and 2.1 for Otto.

Regular RAPTOR metric 0.9 for Gary versus 3 for Otto.


Also even using BPM which Dan suggested you get 3.1 for Otto and 0.2 for Gary.


So I have to say that no Gary by the advanced metrics and I have now looked across a number of them regardless of whether someone has issue with one advnace metric or not... Gary routinely shows up as the worse over all player.. and it makes sense he is less mature in his game (played less years in the league)... so yeah I would go with Gary. Even if you use OBPM only for olast year Gary had one that was -0.1 vs Otto's which was 1.0.

[SkywalkerAC]

Fred
Gary
Otto
Thad/OG
Boucher

Next wave you come with truly elite shooting paired with veteran defense to run up the score before Banton or Koloko or whoever is gets their look before we get serious to close the half strong.

[DanH]

So Gary for DLEBRON is -0.1 Otto is 1.8.


DBPM at least what I am looking at is 0.3 for GTJ and 2.1 for Otto.

Regular RAPTOR metric 0.9 for Gary versus 3 for Otto.


Also even using BPM which Dan suggested you get 3.1 for Otto and 0.2 for Gary.


So I have to say that no Gary by the advanced metrics and I have now looked across a number of them regardless of whether someone has issue with one advnace metric or not... Gary routinely shows up as the worse over all player.. and it makes sense he is less mature in his game (played less years in the league)... so yeah I would go with Gary. Even if you use OBPM only for olast year Gary had one that was -0.1 vs Otto's which was 1.0.

Dan said that BPM is junk. EPM is my suggestion.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Dan said that BPM is junk. EPM is my suggestion.

I gave other metrics too but good to know