2022 PreSeason - 3 Weeks to Camp Opening - Where Do The Raps Stack up in the East ?

[planetmars]

I think experience is more important than age. Pascal and Fred have played 6 seasons.. they are entering their 7th. They are vets but they are still really young.

DeMar was traded after he finished his 9th season as a Raptor. Fred and Pascal have at least 3 more years to match that.. and DeMar isn't even really all that old. He's still pretty much in his prime in my opinion. And this is 4 seasons after he was moved out of Toronto.

[LJ2]

Ok here's what I don't understand, right. I'm watching Sportsnet and Grange is talking about this Raptors "window" and how Siakam and FVV are not that young anymore -- they're already 28. Wait a minute. This whole We The North era started in 2014 against the Brooklyn Nets right? Kyle Lowry at that time was considered a young player. Lowry was 28 in 2014. So he was considered a young player but now Pascal and FVV are old?

I didn't watch the video you are referring to so missing the context here, but Grange might be referring to the idea that Siakam and FVV are in their prime now and ready to contend for a championship while most of their teammates are a couple years away. Still time to win a championship with this core as others have pointed out, but you're pushing the window back to the later years of their prime and there is some uncertainty that goes with that. Does Barnes develop into a star, does Precious develop into a consistent player, can guys stay healthy, can they pay everyone and keep the team together, does Siakam and FVV go sour waiting on the young players....anything can happen between now and then.

The 2019 championship model while successful on that occasion is not something teams strive for. You shouldn't be aiming to snipe one championship at a time, you should be trying to build a perennial contender.

[DanH]

I think experience is more important than age. Pascal and Fred have played 6 seasons.. they are entering their 7th. They are vets but they are still really young.

DeMar was traded after he finished his 9th season as a Raptor. Fred and Pascal have at least 3 more years to match that.. and DeMar isn't even really all that old. He's still pretty much in his prime in my opinion. And this is 4 seasons after he was moved out of Toronto.

And Lowry made his first all star game in his 9th season and made 6 straight. Primes are later than ever these days as guys have found ways to extend their careers with better diets, training, load management, etc.

[DanH]

I didn't watch the video you are referring to so missing the context here, but Grange might be referring to the idea that Siakam and FVV are in their prime now and ready to contend for a championship while most of their teammates are a couple years away. Still time to win a championship with this core as others have pointed out, but you're pushing the window back to the later years of their prime and there is some uncertainty that goes with that. Does Barnes develop into a star, does Precious develop into a consistent player, can guys stay healthy, can they pay everyone and keep the team together, does Siakam and FVV go sour waiting on the young players....anything can happen between now and then.

The 2019 championship model while successful on that occasion is not something teams strive for. You shouldn't be aiming to snipe one championship at a time, you should be trying to build a perennial contender.

To be fair, if Kawhi re-signed that team is a dynasty. The risk was falling back on a one year contention window if you couldn't successfully pitch him to stay, but it's not like they didn't have a clear path to a very long contention window if they got lucky on that one front.

It's fair to point out that Fred and Pascal have entered their primes, but it's a little silly to worry already about when they might be leaving those primes. Probably a half decade off from that.

[TrueTorontoFan]

To be fair, if Kawhi re-signed that team is a dynasty. The risk was falling back on a one year contention window if you couldn't successfully pitch him to stay, but it's not like they didn't have a clear path to a very long contention window if they got lucky on that one front.

It's fair to point out that Fred and Pascal have entered their primes, but it's a little silly to worry already about when they might be leaving those primes. Probably a half decade off from that.

is it a dynasty if he only resigned for one year and they went back to back?


to me a dynasty needs to have a longer reign but just curious as to your definition

[TrueTorontoFan]

Your prime is 28-32. Best mix of skill and athleticism.

in general yeah that is about it and especially when you talk about the mental aspect too. I think SOME people can stretch that but the norm is 32/33 as the end of the peak prime.

[DanH]

is it a dynasty if he only resigned for one year and they went back to back?


to me a dynasty needs to have a longer reign but just curious as to your definition

What I mean is if he re-signed properly, long term, then they have a real good shot to win multiple chips over the next half decade and are serious contenders the whole time.

[LJ2]

To be fair, if Kawhi re-signed that team is a dynasty. The risk was falling back on a one year contention window if you couldn't successfully pitch him to stay, but it's not like they didn't have a clear path to a very long contention window if they got lucky on that one front.

It's fair to point out that Fred and Pascal have entered their primes, but it's a little silly to worry already about when they might be leaving those primes. Probably a half decade off from that.

I'm not saying there wasn't any hope or that the organization didn't do everything in their power to secure him long term, but they had to know of Kawhi's desire to play in LA. He had already forced his way off a championship squad prior to Toronto. Might have been a blessing anyways considering how his health has been since.

It's not silly at all to have a discussion about the the teams decision to play the long game while Siakam and Fred are firmly in their primes now. You're banking on a lot of things going right between now and then which I think was what Grange was trying to say. Again, I haven't seen the piece in question.

[Primer]

I'm not saying there wasn't any hope or that the organization didn't do everything in their power to secure him long term, but they had to know of Kawhi's desire to play in LA. He had already forced his way off a championship squad prior to Toronto. Might have been a blessing anyways considering how his health has been since.

It's not silly at all to have a discussion about the the teams decision to play the long game while Siakam and Fred are firmly in their primes now. You're banking on a lot of things going right between now and then which I think was what Grange was trying to say. Again, I haven't seen the piece in question.

Pascal and Fred are just entering their prime and will be the best of their career for the next 4 years, that's not a tight win now window. Plus neither guy should fall off the map at age 33, they'll still be really good, and as they age out of their prime Scottie, OG, Trent, and Precious will all be in or entering their primes.

I think our roster is constructed extremely well age wise with a good mix of young guys, guys entering their prime, and a few savvy vets.

[golden]

I'm not saying there wasn't any hope or that the organization didn't do everything in their power to secure him long term, but they had to know of Kawhi's desire to play in LA. He had already forced his way off a championship squad prior to Toronto. Might have been a blessing anyways considering how his health has been since.

It's not silly at all to have a discussion about the the teams decision to play the long game while Siakam and Fred are firmly in their primes now. You're banking on a lot of things going right between now and then which I think was what Grange was trying to say. Again, I haven't seen the piece in question.

Going all in for even 1 championship-or-bust season was both a great short-term AND long-term strategic move, regardless of the result. Why? Because at the time many believed the Lowry-DD-JV core were faux-contenders who had reached their playoff ceiling.

A lot of people around here were talking about blowing it up, exactly like what is happening to the Jazz and being happy to get out from under DeRozan's contract, as a win, regardless of how Kawhi worked out. If the team sucked with Kawhi, losing him to LA would've been the starting point of the rebuild and we probably would've traded Lowry the season right after Kawhi left.

At the time, I also looked at the Kawhi trade as a no-lose proposition. To me, it was the culmination of the WeTheNorth Era... with Kawhi fixing all the flaws of DeRozan, who shouldered a lot of the blame for our previous playoff losses. Casey to Nurse was another fix that worked, but it's debatable if that was even necessary. Same with Gasol to JV.

Lowry to Conley was also on the table at the trade deadline... that's the most interesting "what if" of all, that's rarely mentioned. Imagine Lowry's legacy today if Mike Conley came in and rode Kawhi's coat-tails to a championship, instead of Kyle.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Going all in for even 1 championship-or-bust season was both a great short-term AND long-term strategic move, regardless of the result. Why? Because at the time many believed the Lowry-DD-JV core were faux-contenders who had reached their playoff ceiling.

A lot of people around here were talking about blowing it up, exactly like what is happening to the Jazz and being happy to get out from under DeRozan's contract, as a win, regardless of how Kawhi worked out. If the team sucked with Kawhi, losing him to LA would've been the starting point of the rebuild and we probably would've traded Lowry the season right after Kawhi left.

At the time, I also looked at the Kawhi trade as a no-lose proposition. To me, it was the culmination of the WeTheNorth Era... with Kawhi fixing all the flaws of DeRozan, who shouldered a lot of the blame for our previous playoff losses. Casey to Nurse was another fix that worked, but it's debatable if that was even necessary. Same with Gasol to JV.

Lowry to Conley was also on the table at the trade deadline... that's the most interesting "what if" of all, that's rarely mentioned. Imagine Lowry's legacy today if Mike Conley came in and rode Kawhi's coat-tails to a championship, instead of Kyle.

I think going all in for just 1 is good if you haven't done it already. After you have one the goal should be building something that can contend for at least a 3 year period even if it doesn't ultimately end up that way... I say 3 years because its hard to keep teams together for a number of reasons

[DanH]

Going all in for even 1 championship-or-bust season was both a great short-term AND long-term strategic move, regardless of the result. Why? Because at the time many believed the Lowry-DD-JV core were faux-contenders who had reached their playoff ceiling.

A lot of people around here were talking about blowing it up, exactly like what is happening to the Jazz and being happy to get out from under DeRozan's contract, as a win, regardless of how Kawhi worked out. If the team sucked with Kawhi, losing him to LA would've been the starting point of the rebuild and we probably would've traded Lowry the season right after Kawhi left.

At the time, I also looked at the Kawhi trade as a no-lose proposition. To me, it was the culmination of the WeTheNorth Era... with Kawhi fixing all the flaws of DeRozan, who shouldered a lot of the blame for our previous playoff losses. Casey to Nurse was another fix that worked, but it's debatable if that was even necessary. Same with Gasol to JV.

Lowry to Conley was also on the table at the trade deadline... that's the most interesting "what if" of all, that's rarely mentioned. Imagine Lowry's legacy today if Mike Conley came in and rode Kawhi's coat-tails to a championship, instead of Kyle.

Meh, getting out of DeMar's contract wasn't a win. The Kawhi swing was worth taking, whether it paid off or not, based on the upside of it. But if you are going to rebuild, you ideally trade DeMar for assets, not just shed his salary. The Jazz are rebuilding by adding like a dozen draft picks, not by shedding salary.

We don't win the chip with Conley instead of Lowry. Casey to Nurse was necessary. JV to Gasol, sadly, was probably also necessary (I'm on record as thinking we get past the 76ers easier with JV but fall short against the Bucks with him, Gasol was crucial to that Kawhi-Marc wall they built against Giannis that swung the series - and all that assumes they use JV correctly as the starting C which it didn't look like they were going to do, in which case they were in trouble).

[Primer]

Espn projects us as the 4 seed in the East after Boston, Milwaukee, and Philly.

4. Toronto Raptors
Average wins: 47.4

As compared to their peers in the East's second tier, the Raptors had a far less eventful offseason. I project 92% of the team's minutes to go to returning players, with Otto Porter Jr. as the biggest addition. Still, Toronto's strong finish and young core puts the Raptors ahead of their splashier counterparts.

After the Raptors is goes Atlanta, Miami, Brooklyn, Cleveland, Knicks, Hornets, Wizards, Bulls, Pacers, Magic, Pistons.

[planetmars]

Sucks for Birch but that could mean more Koloko earlier in the season.

[Joey]

Espn projects us as the 4 seed in the East after Boston, Milwaukee, and Philly.

4. Toronto Raptors
Average wins: 47.4

As compared to their peers in the East's second tier, the Raptors had a far less eventful offseason. I project 92% of the team's minutes to go to returning players, with Otto Porter Jr. as the biggest addition. Still, Toronto's strong finish and young core puts the Raptors ahead of their splashier counterparts.

After the Raptors is goes Atlanta, Miami, Brooklyn, Cleveland, Knicks, Hornets, Wizards, Bulls, Pacers, Magic, Pistons.

Cleveland at 8th? Surprised by that.