After we inevitably let go of Casey, who should we hire next?

[S.R.]

One or two of Lou, Vasquez, or PP are often in the lineup to close out games. JV often isn't in and sometimes neither is Ross.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Also Casey never plays matchups. Its a set lineup against everybody

I would also argue with this statement. One of the biggest knocks against DC is that he's too reactive in his lineup substitutions/combinations. He plays matchups reactively, but he definitely doesn't look to exploit matchups; he's a defensive minded coach, so I understand his responsive approach (though I don't agree with it).

[S.R.]

I would also argue with this statement. One of the biggest knocks against DC is that he's too reactive in his lineup substitutions/combinations. He plays matchups reactively, but he definitely look to exploit matchups; he's a defensive minded coach, so I understand his responsive approach (though I don't agree with it).

This is true (and I agree), but a dynamic worth mentioning is that the Raptors don't have players who force other teams to adjust their game plan. DD is just starting to draw double teams, so there's that, and the only other guy with potential is JV. We're just starting to see the other coach shuffle through bigs in an attempt to match-up with JV on his good nights. Otherwise, what do other coaches have to adjust for? The Raps offensive system doesn't seem to be one you can disrupt via specific adjustments either.

Just some thoughts.

[raptors999]

You're changing the argument. The initial post I replied to stated that bench points (a stat Toronto is among the league leaders) don't matter come playoff time, because bench players don't play in crunch time, only the 5 starters do. That's what I took issue with.

I totally understand and agree that rotations are shortened and starters play more minutes, come playoffs. However, to completely write-off the importance of a good/deep bench, is too much of a reach when drawing a conclusion. Obviously there aren't as many 2nd unit VS 2nd unit matchups (ie: hockey change) as there are in the regular season, but that doesn't completely negate the importance of key backups.

A good bench is still critical for exploiting or responding to specific matchups (ie: JJ off the bench last year would have significantly helped against Brooklyn's JJ), and it provides a bigger pool of skilled players to draw from when looking for a 'hot hand' (ie: Lou, Patterson and sometimes even GV can heat up and become integral to the team's success). Your post was downplaying the impact a good bench can have, whereas I would argue that having good bench players can be a difference maker in the playoffs.

If the coach is Popovich yes. He experiments all season to find matchup combos that many be useful later. Casey is terrible and uses hockey line changes and never thinks about matchup issues offensively or defensively. In theory a great bench is useful but in practice it just gives Casey more guards to fill out the 5 positions.

[raptors999]

I would also argue with this statement. One of the biggest knocks against DC is that he's too reactive in his lineup substitutions/combinations. He plays matchups reactively, but he definitely doesn't look to exploit matchups; he's a defensive minded coach, so I understand his responsive approach (though I don't agree with it).

He isn't matching up. If given an opportunity Casey goes small. Against the Bulls, GSW, Memphis it isn't matchup related.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If the coach is Popovich yes. He experiments all season to find matchup combos that many be useful later. Casey is terrible and uses hockey line changes and never thinks about matchup issues offensively or defensively. In theory a great bench is useful but in practice it just gives Casey more guards to fill out the 5 positions.

He isn't matching up. If given an opportunity Casey goes small. Against the Bulls, GSW, Memphis it isn't matchup related.

I've been as big a DC critic as anybody, but he definitely deserves more credit than you're giving him. He has strengths and weaknesses like any coach, but he's not a complete moron.

To the first part, our debate was over the importance of and potential impact a good/deep bench could have in the playoffs. I'm glad to hear that you've changed your tune and now agree with me, but I'm not sure why you're now trying to spin it into a dig against DC's use of said bench... it's two entirely different conversations.

[raptors999]

I've been as big a DC critic as anybody, but he definitely deserves more credit than you're giving him. He has strengths and weaknesses like any coach, but he's not a complete moron.

To the first part, our debate was over the importance of and potential impact a good/deep bench could have in the playoffs. I'm glad to hear that you've changed your tune and now agree with me, but I'm not sure why you're now trying to spin it into a dig against DC's use of said bench... it's two entirely different conversations.

I've always maintained a deep versatile bench is very important in the playoffs. It allows mismatches. Its more important to actually use a deep bench then have one. Not being a complete moron isn't a great way to argue for keeping a coach.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I've always maintained a deep versatile bench is very important in the playoffs. It allows mismatches. Its more important to actually use a deep bench then have one.

No you haven't. You specifically made a point to say that a bench was meaningless in the playoffs because only 5 guys played in crunch time (and the bulk of the minutes overall). Your post had nothing to do with coaching or DC's roster usage.

Toronto has the fifth highest scoring bench @ 40 ppg padding ORtg. Close games bench scoring doesn't really matter. Last 4 minutes of games only 5 players contribute

That's precisely what I took issue with and why I responded to your post in the first place. Now you keep trying to change the nature of the debate, to topics that have no bearing on your initial post.

If Patterson closes out the game in place of JV, or Lou/GV close out the game in place of Ross (both are quite common), they are bench players contributing to both bench scoring stats and the Raptors' success. Having a good bench doesn't mean a full 5-man 2nd unit, playing against the opposition's full 5-man 2nd unit. When a single backup plays alongside starters, he's still part of the bench brigade contributing in crunch time.

[raptors999]

No you haven't. You specifically made a point to say that a bench was meaningless in the playoffs because only 5 guys played in crunch time (and the bulk of the minutes overall). Your post had nothing to do with coaching or DC's roster usage.

The bench is meaningless. Pop changes starting lineups depending on matchups. Against certain teams Diaw was a starter and against other the bench, or useful - not useful. The bench in the playoffs is where player who wont play sit. 7-8 guys play 40+ minutes in the playoffs. Either players are in or out. There aren't rotations unless its Casey.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

The bench is meaningless. Pop changes starting lineups depending on matchups. Against certain teams Diaw was a starter and against other the bench, or useful - not useful. The bench in the playoffs is where player who wont play sit. 7-8 guys play 40+ minutes in the playoffs. Either players are in or out. There aren't rotations unless its Casey.

If 7-8 guys play and contribute consistently, that means that 2-3 bench players are crucial to the team's success. If a team is relying on at least 2-3 bench players to be successful, how can the bench (ie: all backups that dress for the game) be meaningless? That's an oxymoron and completely illogical.

[raptors999]

If 7-8 guys play and contribute consistently, that means that 2-3 bench players are crucial to the team's success. If a team is relying on at least 2-3 bench players to be successful, how can the bench (ie: all backups that dress for the game) be meaningless? That's an oxymoron and completely illogical.

They are filler and 7-8 is just the usual shortening. Some teams shorten even further. The 2-3 guys are just to give starters a breather. Nobody is winning based on the couple minutes a sub is getting. Useful player play maximum minutes everyone else minimum. The goal is to make the non-starters as meaningless as possible since the only other outcomes would be bad or they would be starting.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

They are filler and 7-8 is just the usual shortening. Some teams shorten even further. The 2-3 guys are just to give starters a breather. Nobody is winning based on the couple minutes a sub is getting. Useful player play maximum minutes everyone else minimum. The goal is to make the non-starters as meaningless as possible since the only other outcomes would be bad or they would be starting.

I'm done dude, you're arguing around in circles.

First you said a bench was meaningless.

Then you said that a bench was critical for matchups (with the right coach).

Then you said that you've always maintained that a bench was important.

Then you said that 7-8 players were critical AND a bench was meaningless (despite 2-3 of those players actually being bench players).

Then you said that the goal is to make bench players as meaningless as possible (what happened to you always maintaining the importance of a bench).

Sorry, I can't keep up...

[raptors999]

I'm done dude, you're arguing around in circles.

First you said a bench was meaningless.

Then you said that a bench was critical for matchups (with the right coach).

Then you said that you've always maintained that a bench was important.

Then you said that 7-8 players were critical AND a bench was meaningless (despite 2-3 of those players actually being bench players).

Then you said that the goal is to make bench players as meaningless as possible (what happened to you always maintaining the importance of a bench).

Sorry, I can't keep up...

A guy that's playing isn't the bench a guy that isn't is. This is specifically the Spurs. Casey doesn't change lineups hence the BKN series our bench got regular season minutes. This threads is about getting rid of Casey as per the title. A deep bench with Casey is useless. He doesnt play mismatches and doesn't change rotations.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

A guy that's playing isn't the bench a guy that isn't is.

A bench player is any non-starter.

Patterson closing out a game alongside Lowry, DeRozan, Ross and Amir (with the starting C, JV, sitting), is still a bench player. If Patterson scores while playing in that lineup, that's bench points.

A good/deep bench is critical to a team's success, whether it's regular season or playoffs. A bench provides insurance for injured players, short-term relief, positional/situational matchups, etc... A good/deep bench AND a coach that utilizes the bench effectively, can be a huge benefit for a team.

[bryan colangelo]

Golden: the problem with Josh Smith (and to a lesser extent, Rudy) is that he was definitely the type of player with an ego so large he would have made the locker room MORE toxic if he was coming off the bench.

There only other option was to put him on leave or fake an injury. The pistons pretty much did him a favor by waiving him.