Everything Trade Deadline 2023

[golden]

We'll see how hot the market really is this deadline. But I still don't believe Masai will blind side Fred. And no team will trade for him without assurance that he'll come back. Plus he's not playing well so it's not a sure bet he's as coveted as you think he will be.

I never said Fred is coveted. I just think his trade value won't get any higher, relative to his salary & contract situation. It will probably continue to decline. But hey... I've been saying "sell high" on Fred since the chip.

And I don't want the headache of paying Fred the $33M/year he's looking for. Or even the $28.5M/yr max extension that we may have offered, that he won't take. And even if he opts in at $22M... then, we're right back this toxic environment of his future contract hanging over the team like a bad smell to start another season.

People think I'm a hater, but no... I appreciate Fred's big cajones to help us get the chip and also being a stand-up dude and pillar of our culture. But at this point we need to start betting on the future of our team.... rather than paying gratitude & loyalty for the past. And by betting on the team, I mean... I trust this management team armed with first round draft picks.... so if we can get even 1 FRP back for Fred.... that's a win.

[Primer]

The Tampa year wasn't a seller's market. This year... it supposedly is.

Our asking price for Lowry was insane. Morey called it (correctly)... LaLa land. If you believe the reports, our ask was Maxey, Thybulle + 2 FRPs + filler. For a rental. In a weak market. That's insane. Obviously we're not privy to the discussions, but if we could've got Maxey & a pick... in hindsight that would have been a great return.

Now... fast forward to the off-season. Lowry only wants to go to Miami, so automatically there's only 1 team to negotiate with. You have a market of 1 team, instead of the rumored Lakers, Philly and Miami with some rumors about the Pelicans at the trade deadline. That was in a weak market.

The reports I remember at the time was we wanted either Maxey or Thybulle and a 1st and Philly wouldn't include a pick. They wanted to send us Thybulle and filler.

[Primer]

[planetmars]

I never said Fred is coveted. I just think his trade value won't get any higher, relative to his salary & contract situation. It will probably continue to decline. But hey... I've been saying "sell high" on Fred since the chip.

And I don't want the headache of paying Fred the $33M/year he's looking for. Or even the $28.5M/yr max extension that we may have offered, that he won't take. And even if he opts in at $22M... then, we're right back this toxic environment of his future contract hanging over the team like a bad smell to start another season.

People think I'm a hater, but no... I appreciate Fred's big cajones to help us get the chip and also being a stand-up dude and pillar of our culture. But at this point we need to start betting on the future of our team.... rather than paying gratitude & loyalty for the past. And by betting on the team, I mean... I trust this management team armed with first round draft picks.... so if we can get even 1 FRP back for Fred.... that's a win.

His value can definitely go up. If he comes back next year and gets his 3pt shot back up to a 37-38% then he'll be valued. He's not valued at all right now. It's a sell at the lowest moment type of trade. And on top of that he can be a free agent. I mean if he can be traded, sure let's do it. I'm just guessing that it won't happen. I'll give it a low 10% chance he's moved.

The Raptors can feel him out for the rest of this season. If he continues to flounder he can pick up his option and we can revisit after the summer. If he starts off cold again, then worst case we hang on to him for 1 year and let him walk in the following off season. Or try to resign him for cheap (like way below market value).

There is no guarantee we lock him for long term this summer. Masai set up his contracts to allow for him to pivot. This can be a pivot point.

[The Claw Reborn]

time to change course and move on…lol

[saints91]

Chicago Trade:
VanVleet/ Flynn/ Birch
for
Caruso/ Patrick Williams/ White

I like this one!

[planetmars]

This is just you trying to convince yourself lol.

Kawhi was even in a worse predicament than VanVleet now and yet there was one team who coveted his services and risk it for a one season rental…little differences but to reference what you just stated, that situation was even worse. There will always a team out there that would be willing to take that risk.

Masai trading VanVleet before the deadline is not blindsiding him, him betting on himself by declining what was on the table should be fair enough for Masai to reconsider other options….just fair game buddy.

Wait did you just compare Kawhi to Fred? Kawhi was a super star. Fred is a one time all-star. Completely different situations. Fred is playing at his worst.. when Kawhi was hurt, he was about to take out the Warriors single handily. Of course a team would take a chance on Kawhi. The problem was Pops didn't want to move him to the Lakers or a West coast rival. On the East coast, teams didn't want to give up star players (Boston with Brown was an example). We were willing to give up DeMar.

You actually think a team would want to trade for Fred to help their playoff chances this year? I didn't think you liked Fred.

As for the extension thing.. no papers were formally offered. But either way the Raptors got super lucky on that one. At the time his value was higher than his extension. Now it's not. It's good to wait to do the extension if you can. Raptors did and it paid off. But sometimes it doesn't work out for even the team. Like Brunson didn't get his extension and now he's a Knick.

[golden]

His value can definitely go up. If he comes back next year and gets his 3pt shot back up to a 37-38% then he'll be valued. He's not valued at all right now. It's a sell at the lowest moment type of trade. And on top of that he can be a free agent. I mean if he can be traded, sure let's do it. I'm just guessing that it won't happen. I'll give it a low 10% chance he's moved.

The Raptors can feel him out for the rest of this season. If he continues to flounder he can pick up his option and we can revisit after the summer. If he starts off cold again, then worst case we hang on to him for 1 year and let him walk in the following off season. Or try to resign him for cheap (like way below market value).

There is no guarantee we lock him for long term this summer. Masai set up his contracts to allow for him to pivot. This can be a pivot point.

You're missing another big component that factors into value... injuries. That's possibly the biggest factor that front offices look at. Even if Fred regains his 37-38% shooting form (which is probably just average for a rotation shooting guard these days), then he's done himself and us no favors by putting it out there with media that his injuries are the reason for his shooting woes. Fred is starting to get a reputation of being injury prone, which I also pointed out years ago. He has always missed a chunk of games, even before Nurse went full-blown Thibs on his core guys.

[saints91]

I like Fred, but he's not worth over what he was offered. If he wants more now is the time to get value back... not the off-season, the Lowry trade with Miami proved that.

I'm also in for trading Gary, Boucher, and possibly OG (only if you get close to the same haul as the Mitchell trade).

This isn't working.

[Jclaw]

As mentioned above, if we’re trading, we’re not trading to get better this year. Fred may not make that much of a difference (and it might unlock Point Scottie). It pains me to say it’s a lot tougher to lose with Siakam. He’s that good. Build around Scottie, Precious, maybe Gary and whatever young guys/ picks come from trades.
The counter argument is that no player that we may get is guaranteed to be better than Pascal is now so is it worth throwing him away?

[planetmars]

You're missing another big component that factors into value... injuries. That's possibly the biggest factor that front offices look at. Even if Fred regains his 37-38% shooting form (which is probably just average for a rotation shooting guard these days), then he's done himself and us no favors by putting it out there with media that his injuries are the reason for his shooting woes. Fred is starting to get a reputation of being injury prone, which I also pointed out years ago. He has always missed a chunk of games, even before Nurse went full-blown Thibs on his core guys.

Okay sure.. so why is a team trading for him at the deadline if they think he's injury prone now? Let him just walk in free agency? If he opts in, then sit him out for the year, then let him walk.

A guy that's injury prone and can't shoot/score/play isn't an NBA caliber player. Just cut ties and wish him luck in China.

[golden]

I like this one!

But why would the Bulls do that? They give up 3 legit rotation players for a guy who is struggling (Fred), a young guy who needs development minutes (Flynn) and a guy who doesn't even play (Birch). Bulls are in win-now mode and all they're getting in this trade are flyers.

[golden]

Okay sure.. so why is a team trading for him at the deadline if they think he's injury prone now? Let him just walk in free agency? If he opts in, then sit him out for the year, then let him walk.

A guy that's injury prone and can't shoot/score/play isn't an NBA caliber player. Just cut ties and wish him luck in China.

Because they are getting a guy who can actually play games now for players who aren't currently playing or they want to salary dump (e.g Lonzo, Fournier, Westbrook, Bertans, etc..). On the injury question... they would take a risk that Fred's issues are/were because of Nurse over-playing his starters which wouldn't happen on the acquiring team. They'd be betting that he can return to form, like you said. We'd be happy just getting back picks.

[planetmars]

But why would the Bulls do that? They give up 3 legit rotation players for a guy who is struggling (Fred), a young guy who needs development minutes (Flynn) and a guy who doesn't even play (Birch). Bulls are in win-now mode and all they're getting in this trade are flyers.

This is really the crux to why any team would want Fred now. We might as well keep Fred to build up his value or tank it further (if the latter happens, then we get a better draft slot). If we can find a team to trade Fred to.. I don't think we're getting much back. Maybe some shitty contract and a pick in the low 20's.

[The Claw Reborn]

We'll see how hot the market really is this deadline. But I still don't believe Masai will blind side Fred. And no team will trade for him without assurance that he'll come back. Plus he's not playing well so it's not a sure bet he's as coveted as you think he will be.

This is just you trying to convince yourself lol.

Kawhi was even in a worse predicament than VanVleet now and yet there was one team who coveted his services and risk it for a one season rental…little differences but to reference what you just stated, that situation was even worse. There will always a team out there that would be willing to take that risk.

Masai trading VanVleet before the deadline is not blindsiding him, him betting on himself by declining what was on the table should be fair enough for Masai to reconsider other options….just fair game buddy.

Wait did you just compare Kawhi to Fred? Kawhi was a super star. Fred is a one time all-star. Completely different situations. Fred is playing at his worst.. when Kawhi was hurt, he was about to take out the Warriors single handily. Of course a team would take a chance on Kawhi. The problem was Pops didn't want to move him to the Lakers or a West coast rival. On the East coast, teams didn't want to give up star players (Boston with Brown was an example). We were willing to give up DeMar.

You actually think a team would want to trade for Fred to help their playoff chances this year? I didn't think you liked Fred…..

As for the extension thing.. no papers were formally offered. But either way the Raptors got super lucky on that one. At the time his value was higher than his extension. Now it's not. It's good to wait to do the extension if you can. Raptors did and it paid off. But sometimes it doesn't work out for even the team. Like Brunson didn't get his extension and now he's a Knick.

I agree, there are differences, I thought I said that.

but for you to say in absolute terms that “no team will trade for VanVleet without assurances that he’ll comeback” is totally untrue……his current situation is not a rarity

you and me are speculating these things but I once again like the Team Chemistry thing is leaning on the other side of the spectrum.

if there is a trade offer that Masai or Bobby likes, VanVleet ain’t untouchable before the deadline.