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Why it's hard to fix the Raps via trade

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  • Why it's hard to fix the Raps via trade

    Saw people proposing in the fallout of the New Orleans game thread that we need to make a trade soon. But this is the problem: making a trade right now is exceptionally difficult.

    First off, this is the most uncertain season in NBA history, which is exactly why the Western Conference is turning into an arms race: Dallas trading for Rondo, Houston trading for Corey Brewer and snagging Josh Smith, Phoenix trading for Brandan Wright, Memphis trading for Jeff Green, even the Clips trading for Austin Rivers. The Cavaliers have been active too for the same reason: because nobody knows yet who's for real and who isn't. In the West there's at least seven teams who are legit championship threats, in the East there's at least two (Atlanta and Chicago - everybody else has to prove themselves).

    What this means is that there are a lot of teams who think that this is their year, because OKC might not make playoffs and because LeBron's Cavs haven't figured out who they are yet and because Derrick Rose isn't 100% back and because the Spurs look tired... except those four teams all think they have a shot too. We have a season where we're almost at NFL levels of team parity.

    This is literally unprecedented in the NBA and it means nobody who thinks they have a shot is going to trade away a key asset. For example: people speculating about trading for Taj Gibson? It's not happening this year, even with Chicago's issues with salary next summer when they try to retain Jimmy Butler, because Chicago's deadly four-man frontcourt rotation is a huge reason they're winning games, and this could be Chicago's year - right now them and Atlanta are looking like the two best bets to advance to the Finals in the East, that's not when you trade away really good players.

    So if we want to improve by trade, there's only two ways to do it:

    1. Find a trade partner who's actively selling parts because they know they're not making playoffs. But this is harder than it seems because most of the pieces we would be interested from these teams are either gone already (Jeff Green, for example, or Timofey Mozgov), or because they're young and the team views them as a building block and won't trade them except for a large fortune in return (e.g. Derrick Favors in Utah).

    2. Find a trade partner who thinks they're getting one over on us by getting a talented player for a piece they don't value, except because Masai is a genius he knows we're actually doing better in the trade. The Rudy trade last year was sort of like this, because the narrative before we went on a .666 winning streak of ball was that we traded Rudy Gay for spare parts. And Masai's admitted that he wasn't planning on having 2Pat and Greivis turn the team into a success engine anyway, so planning for this is nearly impossible.

    But now we run into the NEXT problem, which is: okay, so what can you trade? You can't realistically trade Kyle or DeMar - they're the stars of the team and it would be demoralizing both for the team and the fans, unless you're getting a superstar somehow in return (which isn't happening). Trading Amir is off the table unless you can get someone who does what Amir does - even in his current state - and that's next to impossible anyway. Trading Bruno or Bebe seems highly unlikely to happen given their future potential and current low value. The expirings of Landry/Chuck/Psycho T are worth next to nothing in the current league, which is mostly matured into the new-CBA era with a couple of exceptional contracts (who all play for Brooklyn anyway). Vasquez has low value both because of a bad year and because he plays at the most stacked position in the league.

    Which means you're looking at trading one or more of Ross, Jonas, 2Pat, or the 2015 first-rounder. (You want to keep the two 2016 first-round picks, since they bundle together much more nicely for next season's trades - even if it's just trading up in that draft.) Can't realistically trade Jonas. So we're down to Ross and 2Pat.

    And now we're at the final problem: there aren't a lot of solid rim-protecting fours and/or decent two-way wings that are available on the current market. There just aren't. When people are talking about Wilson Chandler as a potential upgrade, that's when you know the market's depleted. Jeff Green was probably an upgrade over Ross at the three, even though he'd affect spacing a bit poorly, but he's gone. Who's left? Maybe Tobias Harris (but be prepared to pay Orlando through the nose, because they're not silly) or Aaron Afflalo (ditto for Denver, who just got two goddamn first rounders for Timofey fucking Mozgov). And rim-protecting fours? Who is there, really, that's available?

    It's a tough nut to crack. This is why Masai gets paid the big money.

  • #2
    Why it is hard to fix the Raps via trade?

    Because you can't trade coaches in the NBA.

    Comment


    • #3
      mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      Why it is hard to fix the Raps via trade?

      Because you can't trade coaches in the NBA.
      Kidd was traded for seconds and so was Rivers. Problem is nobody wants Casey.

      Comment


      • #4
        mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
        Why it is hard to fix the Raps via trade?

        Because you can't trade coaches in the NBA.
        Everybody wanting to blame Casey for everything going wrong is oversimplifying. Casey took a roster of spare parts last year and it played .666 ball; we were playing .700 ball before DeMar went down, and that was with no true superstar-level player (Kyle doesn't quite make that bar). That success is Casey's if the current failures are Casey's.

        Look: Dwane Casey is the first coach EVER to get Kyle Lowry to grow the hell up. That is a huge accomplishment and a testament to the fact that he's a fine players' coach. He might joke about analytics, but the Raps play ball that is analytically-focused (they use the three-ball, they draw lots of fouls, etc.) so he's not ignoring current trends in basketball. And the team has successfully executed Casey's defense schemes before, so it's not strictly a matter of his D strategies being poor. Putting this all on Casey is just unfair to him, and I say that as someone who thinks he doesn't play Jonas enough in the clutch.

        Besides which, if you ditch Casey, who do you then go get? George Karl, whose strategy with respect to defense is to pretend it doesn't exist? Mike Malone, whose big achievement is making Sacramento half-decent for a small stretch while he had arguably the single most talented big in the NBA on his roster?

        And what coach is going to want to come work here if you fire a guy for a bad stretch? Let's get some perspective here: since the Raps lost DeMar to injury on November 29, they've gone 13-11. Since the start of the December West Coast roadtrip - which is where we generally agree the real bad stretch started - they've gone 4-8. Is a twelve game sample enough to fire a coach now? Seriously? That's some Vanek Ranadive shit right there.

        Comment


        • #5
          raptors999 wrote: View Post
          Kidd was traded for seconds and so was Rivers. Problem is nobody wants Casey.
          I meant in season but right you are.

          Comment


          • #6
            I've said it before: Wait till FA. Ride out the year, see how well we do, and boom!!!!!!!!
            Axel wrote:
            Now Cody can stop posting about this guy and we have a poster to blame if anything goes wrong!!
            KeonClark wrote:
            We won't hear back from him. He dissapears into thin air and reappears when you least expect it. Ten is an enigma. Ten is a legend. Ten for the motherfucking win.
            KeonClark wrote:
            I can't wait until the playoffs start.

            Until then, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they most often stink

            Comment


            • #7
              magoon wrote: View Post
              Everybody wanting to blame Casey for everything going wrong is oversimplifying. Casey took a roster of spare parts last year and it played .666 ball; we were playing .700 ball before DeMar went down, and that was with no true superstar-level player (Kyle doesn't quite make that bar). That success is Casey's if the current failures are Casey's.

              Look: Dwane Casey is the first coach EVER to get Kyle Lowry to grow the hell up. That is a huge accomplishment and a testament to the fact that he's a fine players' coach. He might joke about analytics, but the Raps play ball that is analytically-focused (they use the three-ball, they draw lots of fouls, etc.) so he's not ignoring current trends in basketball. And the team has successfully executed Casey's defense schemes before, so it's not strictly a matter of his D strategies being poor. Putting this all on Casey is just unfair to him, and I say that as someone who thinks he doesn't play Jonas enough in the clutch.

              Besides which, if you ditch Casey, who do you then go get? George Karl, whose strategy with respect to defense is to pretend it doesn't exist? Mike Malone, whose big achievement is making Sacramento half-decent for a small stretch while he had arguably the single most talented big in the NBA on his roster?

              And what coach is going to want to come work here if you fire a guy for a bad stretch? Let's get some perspective here: since the Raps lost DeMar to injury on November 29, they've gone 13-11. Since the start of the December West Coast roadtrip - which is where we generally agree the real bad stretch started - they've gone 4-8. Is a twelve game sample enough to fire a coach now? Seriously? That's some Vanek Ranadive shit right there.
              This is my take as well. You made some really good points in this thread.

              Comment


              • #8
                magoon wrote: View Post
                Everybody wanting to blame Casey for everything going wrong is oversimplifying. Casey took a roster of spare parts last year and it played .666 ball; we were playing .700 ball before DeMar went down, and that was with no true superstar-level player (Kyle doesn't quite make that bar). That success is Casey's if the current failures are Casey's.

                Look: Dwane Casey is the first coach EVER to get Kyle Lowry to grow the hell up. That is a huge accomplishment and a testament to the fact that he's a fine players' coach. He might joke about analytics, but the Raps play ball that is analytically-focused (they use the three-ball, they draw lots of fouls, etc.) so he's not ignoring current trends in basketball. And the team has successfully executed Casey's defense schemes before, so it's not strictly a matter of his D strategies being poor. Putting this all on Casey is just unfair to him, and I say that as someone who thinks he doesn't play Jonas enough in the clutch.

                Besides which, if you ditch Casey, who do you then go get? George Karl, whose strategy with respect to defense is to pretend it doesn't exist? Mike Malone, whose big achievement is making Sacramento half-decent for a small stretch while he had arguably the single most talented big in the NBA on his roster?

                And what coach is going to want to come work here if you fire a guy for a bad stretch? Let's get some perspective here: since the Raps lost DeMar to injury on November 29, they've gone 13-11. Since the start of the December West Coast roadtrip - which is where we generally agree the real bad stretch started - they've gone 4-8. Is a twelve game sample enough to fire a coach now? Seriously? That's some Vanek Ranadive shit right there.
                wasnt it masai that actually did this?

                Comment


                • #9
                  iblastoff wrote: View Post
                  wasnt it masai that actually did this?
                  Lowry led Houston to a playoff. He was worth a guaranteed lottery pick. Casey's record, offense and defense was terrible before the Gay trade. He was out the door except the Raptors started winning.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    raptors999 wrote: View Post
                    Lowry led Houston to a playoff. He was worth a guaranteed lottery pick.
                    Lowry played three and a half seasons with Houston, and the only time they made playoffs with him there was 2008-09, the year he was traded to them. He played 28 games with them as the backup point guard behind Aaron Brooks that year, which was the last year of the Yao/T-Mac Rockets (you know, the guys who actually led the Rockets to the playoffs).

                    Lowry never "led Houston to a playoff." He was a guy who everybody agreed was talented and who everybody agreed was a difficult prick, and who played himself out of Houston the same way he played himself out of Memphis. The first-rounder wasn't an unreasonable price, but it was certainly a gamble on Colangelo's part.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      magoon wrote: View Post
                      Lowry played three and a half seasons with Houston, and the only time they made playoffs with him there was 2008-09, the year he was traded to them. He played 28 games with them as the backup point guard behind Aaron Brooks that year, which was the last year of the Yao/T-Mac Rockets (you know, the guys who actually led the Rockets to the playoffs).

                      Lowry never "led Houston to a playoff." He was a guy who everybody agreed was talented and who everybody agreed was a difficult prick, and who played himself out of Houston the same way he played himself out of Memphis. The first-rounder wasn't an unreasonable price, but it was certainly a gamble on Colangelo's part.
                      Led them to the playoffs got injured lost his spot to Dragic

                      From Grantland

                      Lowry played like a near All-Star before being sidelined the last quarter of the 2011-12 season with a bacterial infection. Goran Dragic played well in his absence, and the Rockets decided they could trade Lowry to shed salary cap and acquire draft picks. In July 2012, he was sent to Toronto for Gary Forbes and a first-round draft pick.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Our squad's talent isn't the issue here.

                        On paper, we have one of the best benches in the league, except we are completely utilizing them wrong.

                        Casey is using Vasquez as a shoot first guy (he was a league leader in assists 2 seasons back).
                        He tries to use Ross in the Demar role (create mid-range shots off the dribble, when he should be a 3 point marksman)

                        Amir's summer time three was the biggest bullshit I've seen in a long time. Guy should be getting boards, running P&Rs and finishing at the rim hard.

                        JV gets no touches, and when he does, its a post up from 15 feet out, with no ball movement, and he's expected to create. That's if he gets the ball. Otherwise, if he makes a mistake, BENCHED.

                        James Johnson gets no minutes?? Lou Will has the green light to chuck every shot??

                        That's whats wrong with this squad. Casey has no system and its all chaos out there.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          raptors999 wrote: View Post
                          Led them to the playoffs got injured lost his spot to Dragic

                          From Grantland

                          Lowry played like a near All-Star before being sidelined the last quarter of the 2011-12 season with a bacterial infection. Goran Dragic played well in his absence, and the Rockets decided they could trade Lowry to shed salary cap and acquire draft picks. In July 2012, he was sent to Toronto for Gary Forbes and a first-round draft pick.
                          1. The Rockets did not make the playoffs in 2011-2012. Lowry did not "lead" the Rockets to anything particularly.

                          2. Lowry played well in 2011-12. He was not a locker-room leader and it is widely acknowledged that part of the reason Houston was willing to trade a talented player is because he was a pain in the ass. Lowry himself has repeatedly acknowledged that he clashed with Kevin McHale and that he was an immature jackass during his time in Houston.

                          Please, just stop making shit up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            magoon wrote: View Post
                            1. The Rockets did not make the playoffs in 2011-2012. Lowry did not "lead" the Rockets to anything particularly.

                            2. Lowry played well in 2011-12. He was not a locker-room leader and it is widely acknowledged that part of the reason Houston was willing to trade a talented player is because he was a pain in the ass. Lowry himself has repeatedly acknowledged that he clashed with Kevin McHale and that he was an immature jackass during his time in Houston.

                            Please, just stop making shit up.
                            http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/rock...009_11_10.html

                            http://probballreport.com/was-kyle-l...y-an-all-star/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why it's hard to fix the Raps via trade

                              Guys I've figured out why we stopped playing well... After that tragic Portland game where we got robbed I stopped watching Raps games. The only 2 I actually watched were against Boston and Philly... Both wins
                              A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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