Tom Thibs to Toronto next season?

[Mediumcore]

You could argue that JJ is our Jimmy Butler and Amir/Patterson is our Noah. Derrick Rose is not that good of a defender and Dunleavy is pretty mediocre. So basically Lowry and DeMar.

I honestly just don't like Casey's style of defense, though to be fair, since inserting James Johnson into the starting lineup, we have been light years better defensively. Most we've given up in 6 games is 100 points. Everything else has been under that. If Patterson was inserted into the starting lineup, maybe that could help with spacing and overall more intelligent plays and Casey wouldn't look so bad.

Similarities yes, but I just feel like they are that much better. Like Noah is a legit 7 footer wheras Amir is always undersized in his match ups, and I don't in any way consider PP a defensive minded player.

Fair enough if you don't like Casey's system. I think when it was working and all of the players buying into it that it was working really great...like elite levels. But playing defense in any system takes full commitment from all the players and for a full season. We don't really have that sort of leadership to drive our players to commit to it like a Noah, or Garnett would.

[Mediumcore]

You sort of have to create a coles notes version of defense for this current squad.

[Other Scott]

You could argue that JJ is our Jimmy Butler and Amir/Patterson is our Noah. Derrick Rose is not that good of a defender and Dunleavy is pretty mediocre. So basically Lowry and DeMar.

I honestly just don't like Casey's style of defense, though to be fair, since inserting James Johnson into the starting lineup, we have been light years better defensively. Most we've given up in 6 games is 100 points. Everything else has been under that. If Patterson was inserted into the starting lineup, maybe that could help with spacing and overall more intelligent plays and Casey wouldn't look so bad.

Miraculously, if you put good defensive players into your system, your defense improves a lot!

Casey got too much blame for the defensive struggles of this team. It's about the players, not necessarily the system.

I would say he gets too much credit for the offensive success, because that would be nice and balanced of me, but, ummm..., he doesn't get any credit. So throw that out the window.

[white men can't jump]

Are our players that bad defensively?

Jonas is young, but improving, and has shown pretty good things that you want from your C defensively, except that the system doesn't try to maximize having a 7' rim protector. Whether you think it should or not, I think everyone can still agree on that. (And he did anchor his national team's D very well this past summer too in a rim-protector role)

Amir and 2Pat are both high IQ, mobile defenders, with Amir being more able to play on the interior. Both are above average defenders at PF, and some might say Amir has been borderline elite (over his many years, obviously he's struggling with his wonky ankles this season).

JJ is a very good defensive player, and a tailor-made player for Casey's scramble/rotation heavy system, as he has the tools to guard pretty much any position.

Ross is the big disappointment, but after significant improvement last year he's stalled/regressed. Still, he has all the tools, and has shown the ability to be a lockdown perimeter defender. I think there's a lot of blame to put on him, but at least some has to go on the staff, because they're supposed to shepherd the youngsters along to try and keep them on a positive growth trajectory.

Lowry was always considered a defensively good PG. Sure he has more offensive responsibilities, but he's been downright awful at times, especially this year.

Even DeMar has been good enough most nights now, and Lou and Hansbrough as well have shown the ability to fill a defensive role well enough. Greivis is the only truly bad defender with awful tools. And Ross is the only one you can excuse as it being because of his own lack of focus/motor.

So I'm not convinced with the whole "we don't have the players for better D" argument.

[Primer]

You hire Thibs immediately if he becomes available. He's a no doubt upgrade over Casey. Almost every other coaching option will have some doubt attached as to whether they'll improve the team. Thibs would also immediately get respect from the players due to his proven coaching success. Not to mention he'd get the fan base more hyped than just about any other option (I guarantee more raps fans know who Thibs is than who Nurse is).

Also, RE: Thibs running players into the ground. Butler is playing nearly the same minutes Derozan did last year. So Casey does the same damn thing. Casey also plays Amir heavy minutes when he's visibily limping up and down the court (thats the definition of running a player into the ground). Therefore, it can't be used as an argument to keep Casey instead.

[Axel]

I'm not saying that Thibs' defense wouldn't work with the Raptors. He's a great defensive coach and is able to get players anywhere to play defense. I was disagreeing with the idea that his defensive scheme is much more suitable to the Raptors personnel. Going back to Boston, you really can't compare. You're talking about one of the best defenders of all time in KG, Rondo routinely leads the league in steals and is always a top notch defender, and everyone knows what T. Allen can do. On top of that Pierce was always a really smart defender and even though he was never great he was never what you would call a liability on that end of the floor.

I think we can all agree that our system puts JV in a hard spot, with a lot of help heavy rotations. He isn't that mobile big who can run all over the place and would be better suited in a less "scramble" defence.

I think all of the other pieces are workable in either scheme (to varying degrees), but if JV is our future stud then scheming to keep him on the floor makes sense to me.

[Mediumcore]

Are our players that bad defensively?

Jonas is young, but improving, and has shown pretty good things that you want from your C defensively, except that the system doesn't try to maximize having a 7' rim protector. Whether you think it should or not, I think everyone can still agree on that. (And he did anchor his national team's D very well this past summer too in a rim-protector role)

Amir and 2Pat are both high IQ, mobile defenders, with Amir being more able to play on the interior. Both are above average defenders at PF, and some might say Amir has been borderline elite (over his many years, obviously he's struggling with his wonky ankles this season).

JJ is a very good defensive player, and a tailor-made player for Casey's scramble/rotation heavy system, as he has the tools to guard pretty much any position.

Ross is the big disappointment, but after significant improvement last year he's stalled/regressed. Still, he has all the tools, and has shown the ability to be a lockdown perimeter defender. I think there's a lot of blame to put on him, but at least some has to go on the staff, because they're supposed to shepherd the youngsters along to try and keep them on a positive growth trajectory.

Lowry was always considered a defensively good PG. Sure he has more offensive responsibilities, but he's been downright awful at times, especially this year.

Even DeMar has been good enough most nights now, and Lou and Hansbrough as well have shown the ability to fill a defensive role well enough. Greivis is the only truly bad defender with awful tools. And Ross is the only one you can excuse as it being because of his own lack of focus/motor.

So I'm not convinced with the whole "we don't have the players for better D" argument.

Like I said in one of the posts above. It's not that they can't play better defense, they have played top notch defense under this system. But not all players are cut from the same cloth. You can't teach guys to have the same defensive intensity as a Noah or Garnett. You can put DD into a situation where he can be more successful defensively, but he's not going to have the mentality or drive of a Tony Allen, Jimmy Butler or K. Leonard on defense.

[Other Scott]

Also, RE: Thibs running players into the ground. Butler is playing nearly the same minutes Derozan did last year. So Casey does the same damn thing. Casey also plays Amir heavy minutes when he's visibily limping up and down the court (thats the definition of running a player into the ground). Therefore, it can't be used as an argument to keep Casey instead.

Everyone is playing less minutes than last year. Coaches are beginning to see that it's an overall detriment to the team to keep players in the game more than about 36 minutes per game. Everyone except Thibs, apparently, where there's been rumours that behind the scenes the Bulls hired some sort of physician who tried to prove the long term benefits of reducing players minutes, and Thibs ignored them.

Amir Johnson is not playing heavy minutes. He's playing 4 less minutes per game than Rose and Noah, who similarly have injury worries associated with them. Many people are calling for Patterson to start, but he and Amir are playing exactly the same minutes as is. If Amir's ankles are that much of a problem, he should be on the injured reserve. What's the point in only playing him 15 minutes a game?

Casey's been very good at minute management this year. There's been a lot of Lowry (I would say slightly too much), but not more than any other team's best player plays right now. Go down the list, and there's no player playing above capabilities. A couple are playing below what they should be.

I'm not necessarily saying Casey over Thibs, (though I do believe that). I'm saying there's better options than Thibs. The Chicago falling out has happened for a non-play-related reason, and why do we think things would be any different here?

[Mediumcore]

I think we can all agree that our system puts JV in a hard spot, with a lot of help heavy rotations. He isn't that mobile big who can run all over the place and would be better suited in a less "scramble" defence.

I think all of the other pieces are workable in either scheme (to varying degrees), but if JV is our future stud then scheming to keep him on the floor makes sense to me.

I agree about JV. I'm just trying to think if there are any dominant true centres anymore. Even Gasol has a mid range game. Hibbert is sort of a dinosaur in todays NBA, Howard isn't dominant the way he was in the past. I wonder if JV's game just isn't meant for this current era of NBA.

[raptors999]

Like I said in one of the posts above. It's not that they can't play better defense, they have played top notch defense under this system. But not all players are cut from the same cloth. You can't teach guys to have the same defensive intensity as a Noah or Garnett. You can put DD into a situation where he can be more successful defensively, but he's not going to have the mentality or drive of a Tony Allen, Jimmy Butler or K. Leonard on defense.

Defensive coaches improve team defense with the same roster. JVG never had a team defense not improve. Casey was called a defensive coach but never really improved defense

[Primer]

Everyone is playing less minutes than last year. Coaches are beginning to see that it's an overall detriment to the team to keep players in the game more than about 36 minutes per game. Everyone except Thibs, apparently, where there's been rumours that behind the scenes the Bulls hired some sort of physician who tried to prove the long term benefits of reducing players minutes, and Thibs ignored them.

Amir Johnson is not playing heavy minutes. He's playing 4 less minutes per game than Rose and Noah, who similarly have injury worries associated with them. Many people are calling for Patterson to start, but he and Amir are playing exactly the same minutes as is. If Amir's ankles are that much of a problem, he should be on the injured reserve. What's the point in only playing him 15 minutes a game?

Casey's been very good at minute management this year. There's been a lot of Lowry (I would say slightly too much), but not more than any other team's best player plays right now. Go down the list, and there's no player playing above capabilities. A couple are playing below what they should be.

I'm not necessarily saying Casey over Thibs, (though I do believe that). I'm saying there's better options than Thibs. The Chicago falling out has happened for a non-play-related reason, and why do we think things would be any different here?

With Amir, it's not injury worries, it's that he's literally limping around, you can see he's in pain with your eyes, you don't need an MRI or a specialist to tell you. If I see a kid limping around on the court, I take him out of the game and don't let him play until he can walk normal. Playing hurt like that puts a lot of stress and loads on other parts of your body, and causes injuries there too, it's a domino effect. If Amir was playing only 15 minutes per game the whole year he probably wouldn't be limping around and dumping his feet in an ice bath immediately post game. The guy is too tough for his own good, and Casey isn't protecting him from himself. It's especially confusing when we have Patterson, JJ, and Hansbrough who can all play meaningful minutes at PF to give Amir his needed rest. Even 5 minutes per game from Hayes or Steamer could further alleviate Amir's minutes. Casey seems like one of those "rub some dirt on it" guys, and that doesn't work in real life.

[Mediumcore]

Defensive coaches improve team defense with the same roster. JVG never had a team defense not improve. Casey was called a defensive coach but never really improved defense

Maybe you weren't here around here during the Jay Triano days.

[Axel]

Maybe you weren't here around here during the Jay Triano days.

A well trained dog would have improved our defence after Triano.

[Axel]

Maybe you weren't here around here during the Jay Triano days.

A well trained dog would have improved our defence after Triano.

Particularly this guy....looks tough...

[Mediumcore]

A well trained dog would have improved our defence after Triano.

LOL, funny but not a fair comment to make when discussing what Casey has been able to to for the Raptors defense.