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RR's Tom Liston & Michael Grange On the Merits of Tanking

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  • RR's Tom Liston & Michael Grange On the Merits of Tanking

    Not sure how long ago you had the arguement with Grange Tom, but kudos to the mention again.

    It does open one's eyes a bit too and wonder.

    My overwhelming thought watching the Raptors somehow lose to Golden State the other day was this: Why didn’t the Raptors draft Stephen Curry?

    It’s pretty clear on the strength of his play this year he’s going to be a very special player. Is he the bundle of athletic potential that Derrick Rose is? No. But neither is Steve Nash, and he gets by pretty well. Watching Curry live, that’s what came to mind. He’s nowhere near the ball-handler Nash is yet. And it’s probably a reach to suggest he’ll ever be quite the passer Nash has proven to be. But he plays with the same calm, focused intensity. He’s much quicker and more athletic than his jumping ability (above average, but not great spectacular) would lead people to believe. And my God can he shoot, which in the case of each player compliments everything they do, rather defines it. And plus he likes the city and his girlfriend’s family is from here.

    The easy answer to the question is that the Raptors were picking ninth and Curry was taken seventh.

    But I’m also curious why the Raptors didn’t draft Ricky Rubio (taken fifth)? Or even Tyreke Evans, who went fourth?

    This is nothing against DeMar DeRozan exactly. He’s been just as advertised: A very athletic player with limited elite basketball experience who has at time shone in his first NBA season but more often has been kind of meh. He’s no Sonny Weems, in other words. He’s put in a lot of time on his game and will surely become the player he’s destined to be, it’s just yet to be determined what kind of player that is.

    But wouldn’t the tone of the discussion right now be a little different if the Raptors had a rookie in the fold who not only was significant, game-changing talent, but quite likely a potential star?

    Can we agree on that?

    Which brings me to myself. A year ago the Raptors were on a winning streak, one that ended up with them finishing 9-4 in their last 13 games. What a waste.

    This is what I wrote then in response to Tom Liston of Raptors Republic who – as a season ticket holder – objected to my argument then on the merits of tanking.

    “Presuming the Raptors scouting staff would never get this wrong, they should get a better player picking 5th than 9th, or 8th than 9th, for that matter. And I guess my view is that if you're going to miss the playoffs or just make them and get crushed in the first round, better to pick fifth than 13th, or 16th. But hey, easy for me to say.”
    Source - Click here

  • #2
    Talk about stating the obvious.

    Curry flourished in GS because of the Don Nelson system that causes players to pad their stats but doesn't neccessarly translate in wins.

    Demar has a learning curve and the Raptors knew that when they drafted him so to expect for him to be an impact player (when they also limit his minutes) in his first season is a bit too much to ask. Judge this draft by the end of its third season where I believe Demar will have a break out year.

    The biggest dissapointment of Colangelo was not being able to sign John Salmon 3 seasons ago (because god told him ) that would have solved some of the headaches today if it were done.


    • #3
      Curry will be a good player in this league. If he is lucky, he will land on a team that can hide his deficient defence. On this Rpators team, imagine a backcourt of Jose and Curry - we would be giving up even more points per game.

      Curry has the potential to be what Mike Bibby was in his prime. A dead eye shooter with good passing skills, but marginal ability to drive to the net, and limited lateral quicks. Decent stealer though.

      Tyreke still has the most potential of all the picks though. He could be the next D-Wade.


      • #4
        I don't care what system Curry is in, that boy has got some great skills. Not sure how you can discredit a player solely due to the system he plays under.


        • #5
          Re Tanking this season - I would rather lose the pick this year, than lose it next year. Colangelo clearly is not excited about what he could get with a first round pick this year, or he would not have included it in the trade.

          Plus, if I am correct, the Raps are on a downward course for a couple of years because Turk and Calderon are aging, not entering their prime, and those are two difficult to move contracts.


          • #6
            EDIT: see below. Lotto protected for five years.
            Last edited by Apollo; Wed Apr 7, 2010, 04:21 PM.


            • #7
              The deal also calls for Toronto to get the league's maximum allowed in cash considerations ($3 million) and for the Heat to land a conditional first-round pick to come sometime between 2010 and 2015. It's lottery-protected, essentially meaning the first time the Raptors make the playoffs after this season, their first-rounder goes to Miami.


              • #8
                Great trade by Colangelo. I remember when it went down, he was very apprehensive of giving up the pick.

                If only Isiah had gotten to page four of the gm's manual where it describes the rationale behind protecting 1st round picks.

                I don't know why people hate on Curry, the kid is amazing. Great fundamentals, great feel for the game and has JR Smith range without the luggage. I see him emulating Steve Nash more than anyone, little more athletic without as much vision.

                If GS can get something for Ellis, draft well and stay healthy next year, they are going to be on the play off bubble.


                • #9
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  I don't care what system Curry is in, that boy has got some great skills. Not sure how you can discredit a player solely due to the system he plays under.
                  Agreed -- and I think Curry would look phenomenal in the Raptors offense. Absolutely phenomenal.


                  • #10
                    I can see the benefit of tanking, I still don't get why tanking and merits are used in the same phrase.

                    Tanking is so wrong for a franchise for many perspectives:
                    1. The NBA is business. The season ticket holder pays a lot of $$$ to see professional basketball every game. Once you lose the faith of season ticket holders, you may have hard time to get them back. Also, is hard to sell NBA merchandise when you team is "tanking"!
                    2. A real NBA player should be professional and never accept to play under his capabilities.
                    3. Good players still can be drafted in late first round draft.
                    4. Winning mentality can't be built on tanking the season.

                    I see tanking being an option, only if the team management decide to totally rebuild from scratch and for that matter they decide to trade their current assets for young players with potential or future draft picks (I.E. Nets). I still expect the young players to try their best to win games, but by GM's design the team is not good enough yet to compete. So, I don't see how tanking the last 5 games is going to drastically improve Raptors. If Bosh decides to leave and Collangelo trades a significant number of big contracts starting the rebuild from scratch, then you can tank next year. Don't expect the audience to be that much at ACC when Raptors plays in this case!


                    • #11
                      Wait a second. Are people suggesting the team should tank or are people suggesting that the team missing the playoffs would be better for them than making the playoffs? I thought people were suggesting the later. The Raptors as a club would not be looking at tanking right now, they want to make it. The playoffs means making more money at the gate and through merchandise where as missing it merely gives them another talent to develop. Better believe they want that money first and foremost.


                      • #12
                        Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
                        Not sure how long ago you had the arguement with Grange Tom, but kudos to the mention again.
                        Here's the original link.

                        I'm a big believer in having pride as an organization (basketball or otherwise). As well, I think you disrepect the game a bit by tanking.
                        I want a winning and fighting atmosphere AT ALL TIMES. Losing breeds a losing atmosphere.

                        I type this at the half of the Boston game tonight. Do tell me you don't love the fight we're giving them. I fully expect Pierce and company to pour it on - but can you imagine if we won without Bosh and Turkoglu. Talk about energizing a fan base.