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When will mu have to start taking responsibility for dc's poor defensive coaching schemes?

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  • enlightenment
    replied
    Mu needs to take responsibility by firing Casey

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  • psrs1
    replied
    MU please wake !!!!!

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  • S.R.
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    And there was this "other guy" who could guard 4 positions. Can't quite remember his name. Unfortunately, he's not included with the system. lol.

    Also, look at where Spoelstra's defense is now? Bottom 1/3rd of the league (21st DRTG). Even with Whiteside - a terrific off ball help defender, rebounder and elite rim-protector. And Deng's a good defender too. Bosh hasn't been out that long.
    Great point about Miami.

    A) A system needs the right personnel. Spo's system with Lebron and a healthy Bosh was championship calibre. Without them (I'm sure Spo's made adjustments this year tho) it's bottom third. Exhibit B would be Mike D'Antoni, who's offensive really influenced the entire league (teams are still adjusting offenses in that direction), but D'Antoni couldn't coach himself out of a wet paper bag when Steve Nash wasn't his point guard.

    B) Truly great coaches adjust. Thibs has worked with all kinds of personnel because of Chicago's massive injury problems. GOAT coaches like Pops adjust systems entirely to fit his personnel.

    C) Casey had the personnel in Dallas for his system (Chandler + Marion + Kidd) and the defense was really only quite good, not league best. He clearly doesn't have the personnel he needs here (see point A) and has been completely unwilling to adjust anything (see point B). He basically just tells guys to try harder and benches Jonas. That's his solution. Meanwhile the team is a bottom third defense. :/

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  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    Chris Bosh is the other obvious guy who has worked in this system and anchored the Miami defense to two titles. It's why Spoelstra always talked about how critical Bosh was even though no one listened.

    Or Amir...... See, theoretically, some combination of Amir/JJ/PPat/Ross should be able to cover for JV's lack of footspeed but Ross wet the bed this year and Amir isn't the same Amir.
    And there was this "other guy" who could guard 4 positions. Can't quite remember his name. Unfortunately, he's not included with the system. lol.

    Also, look at where Spoelstra's defense is now? Bottom 1/3rd of the league (21st DRTG). Even with Whiteside - a terrific off ball help defender, rebounder and elite rim-protector. And Deng's a good defender too. Bosh hasn't been out that long.

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  • Bandit
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    Where did I say he wasn't a useful player? I'm merely pointing out the fact that the defense and offense are worse when he's on the court. It is what it is. I'm not characterizing his play at all.
    You were talking about his impact in the game as being a major issue, and I was saying that I don't think a player can be held accountable for his impact beyond his role. That is especially true for big men who cannot pass themselves the ball or go coast to coast.

    I made the comparison that if you took away what Lou is good at and asked him to do what he was not so good at then he too would have a low impact. The same goes for every player.

    I believe that JV makes the best out of what he can, that is to say that I believe his impact is as good as it can be in this current system. That in no way is an issue of his game that he can work on.

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  • slaw
    replied
    Perhaps only Tyson Chandler in his prime could do all of that and Rudy Gobert a few years from now. That would seem like pretty significant system flaw, IMO.
    Chris Bosh is the other obvious guy who has worked in this system and anchored the Miami defense to two titles. It's why Spoelstra always talked about how critical Bosh was even though no one listened.

    Or Amir...... See, theoretically, some combination of Amir/JJ/PPat/Ross should be able to cover for JV's lack of footspeed but Ross wet the bed this year and Amir isn't the same Amir.

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  • slaw
    replied
    Bandit wrote: View Post
    Bold one : Finishing with authority is a massive issue, gargantuan gaping hole in his game.

    Bold two + three: So he's an efficient player, who has decent defense, doesn't turn the ball over much, rebounds well but isn't useful on the team? If you can find a way to explain to me how he how he isn't helping the team win without including Casey or his schemes I will be impressed. I mean if you asked Lou to play a 30 min game where he got few touches, few shots and a ton of defensive responsibility I don't think he would have a good rating either. I mean the defense requires JV to rush corner 3s on a regular basis... Why not ask the guards to start guarding opposing bigs on a regular basis?
    Where did I say he wasn't a useful player? I'm merely pointing out the fact that the defense and offense are worse when he's on the court. It is what it is. I'm not characterizing his play at all.

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  • octothorp
    replied
    KHD wrote: View Post
    Basketball IQ, i'll give you, although coaching gets tied up in that sometimes (makes guys look good, or bad...)
    I suspect that Ujiri might think that BBIQ is a teachable quality (or possibly even an overrated quality), because it's never been something that he's seemed to place a lot of emphasis on in player acquisitions. (In his entire GM career, you can point to Igoudala as just about the only really high BBIQ guy he's acquired; maybe drafting Fournier, too (edit: oh, and Andre Miller)). I worry about the fact that we don't have a particularly high BBIQ team. I'd list Hayes, Lowry, both Johnsons, and Patterson as being the best BBIQ guys on the team, and none of them are guys that I think would be listed as really high BBIQ guys on a league-wide level (maybe Amir).
    To me, this is the big gamble in Uriji's team-building here, and it puts a lot of pressure on Casey to teach, and to implement a system that plays more towards players utilizing physical attributes than smarts. And so far, that's something that Casey seems to have been unable to do, instead implementing a system that seems to exacerbate poor decision-making. I think Casey ideally wants a team of smart, crafty veterans who pick up systems quickly, and Ujiri wants a team of young, long athletic specimens. This will probably come to a head this offseason. I think Ujiri understands that Casey and the current direction of the personnel on the team are incompatible.
    Last edited by octothorp; Tue Mar 24, 2015, 04:03 PM.

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  • KHD
    replied
    Superjudge wrote: View Post
    heh.

    go player for player with both rosters.

    be honest, and then tell me, is Toronto better than Chicago in terms of athletics and BBAL IQ.
    Since i'm talking about teams that had Kyle Korver playing 20+ minutes and Carlos Boozer starting, I think athleticism point stands.

    It's also telling that a team starting one of the worst defenders in the league (Boozer) was good defensively.

    Basketball IQ, i'll give you, although coaching gets tied up in that sometimes (makes guys look good, or bad...)
    Last edited by KHD; Tue Mar 24, 2015, 03:11 PM.

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  • Superjudge
    replied
    heh.

    go player for player with both rosters.

    be honest, and then tell me, is Toronto better than Chicago in terms of athletics and BBAL IQ.

    Leave a comment:


  • KHD
    replied
    One of the things about this whole debate that I find interesting is the fact that people are willing to dig for anything they can use to blame Valanciunas, a 22 year old developing center, instead of a guy who has had one good year as a defensive (assistant) coach when he had the top defensive player in the NBA, who was ALSO a center (Tyson Chandler). To me, Casey's defensive scheme is STILL built around Chandler, and that's a huge problem because there is nobody else out there like him (Maybe Gobert later on).

    You want to see a good defensive coach? Look at what Thibs has been able to do defensively in his career with injuries and with much less athletic players than the Raptors have.

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  • golden
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't include any of those items as being issues. JV's biggest issues right now are:

    1. Defense: He can't defend screen and roll. At all. He is one of the worst players in the NBA at defending spot-ups and is bottom half defending rolls to the bucket.

    2. Impact: He is the only regular Raptor who has a negative net rating. And the worst on/off split on the team. Both ORTG and DRTG plummet when he is on the floor. Every single player (other than JJ) has a worst TS% with JV on the floor. He is in all of their worst linueps.

    He's an efficient scorer inside, rebounds well enough and adequately protects the rim. Scheme might help some of his defensive issues and his lane clogging wouldn't matter so much if the Raps perimeter people would start making shots again.

    And, again, minutes =/= development. None of his issues are a result of lack of "crunch time minutes" or playing time generally. They are a result of significant holes in his defensive game (the offense is fine at this point) starting with his speed and agility.
    William Lou covered some of this on the RR main page recently. JV is indeed too slow for Casey's aggressive scheme, but having smaller guys like 2Pat, Amir & Hans gets us slaughtered on the boards with less rim protection. So, basically we don't have a defensive scheme that can defend pick and roll AND rebound AND defend the post, regardless of personnel. Marc Gasol and Roy Hibbert would suck too. Even Duncan. Perhaps only Tyson Chandler in his prime could do all of that and Rudy Gobert a few years from now. That would seem like pretty significant system flaw, IMO.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/...efensive-woes/

    The Raptors don’t have the pieces to play so aggressively, at least, not without making concessions.

    It starts with Jonas Valanciunas, who is too slow to show and recover to Casey’s liking. His troubles are further complicated by his poor decision making, which always seems a step behind as if the game were too fast for him. It’s no surprise why the Raptors’ defense is significantly better with him off the floor, or why Valanciunas routinely benched (he plays the least clutch minutes out of any starter). When the Raptors’ defense notches into top speed, Valanciunas’ limitations leaves him in the dust.


    But the Raptors don’t have a true center to play in place of Valanciunas. Chuck Hayes, bless his soul, is way too short and he’s slow. Greg Stiemsma is a foul machine and Bebe Noguiera playing basketball is akin to Bambi learning to walk.

    That necessitates a small frontline like Hansbrough and Patterson (which has been effective in certain spots), or relying heavily on Amir Johnson’s creaky ankles. All three can rotate and execute Casey’s gameplan, but there’s a price to be paid in terms of rim protection and rebounding. None of the three rank as particularly strong shot blockers or rebounders, which, incidentally, happen to be two of Valanciunas’s strengths.

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  • Puffer
    replied
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Play with this chart.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/E2p5T
    Great selection

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  • Puffer
    replied
    Jangles wrote: View Post
    Looks clear that he means significant moves. Signing Kyle to that deal was well done as well, as was Lou & Nog for Salmons. Everything else, BC or many other GMs likely could have accomplished.
    And what other GM could have traded Bargs? Not BC...he tried.

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  • raptors999
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't include any of those items as being issues. JV's biggest issues right now are:

    1. Defense: He can't defend screen and roll. At all. He is one of the worst players in the NBA at defending spot-ups and is bottom half defending rolls to the bucket.

    2. Impact: He is the only regular Raptor who has a negative net rating. And the worst on/off split on the team. Both ORTG and DRTG plummet when he is on the floor. Every single player (other than JJ) has a worst TS% with JV on the floor. He is in all of their worst linueps.

    He's an efficient scorer inside, rebounds well enough and adequately protects the rim. Scheme might help some of his defensive issues and his lane clogging wouldn't matter so much if the Raps perimeter people would start making shots again.

    And, again, minutes =/= development. None of his issues are a result of lack of "crunch time minutes" or playing time generally. They are a result of significant holes in his defensive game (the offense is fine at this point) starting with his speed and agility.
    When JV sits Raptors go on full chuck mode and defensive rebounding goes in the toilet. A large portion of his minutes came with either Fields and Ross or JJ starting and next to Amir.

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