Just Enjoy The Ride...

[ceez]

i actually watched the knicks game and just sat there slack jawed at the knicks play by play guys questioning why we weren't using JV vs Amundson more.

[mcHAPPY]

My confession.

I am just another schlepp fan on a forum who has watched/followed the game for awhile...so what do I know.

I shall just say with all the promise the same group (with a couple of positive additions I thought) have started to play a pretty disorganized and inconsistent style as compared to end of last season/playoffs. My own view is that this is on the coaching staff. They seem to be either unable to dissuade this style of play or abet in it's continuance. Can they tell that the opposition are in on their methods? This is the offense mostly but it probably affects the defense as well. I also suspect that there may be an over reliance on some advanced stats (eg. affecting JV's usage and too many 3s hoisting). This would have to be an organizational thing/responsibility....so MU/Weltman would have to be in on this. All to say the team seems to be forcing things rather than last year when it seemed much more in flow.

In anycase I am now left hoping there is some purposeful reasoning to continuing with the coaching methods used and/or a light will go on suddenly and they play with the intensity they did in the last playoffs. Rationally, I would consider these hopes in the "grabbing at straws" category. But lightning strikes....right?

I am a Raptors fan after all.

I can only pray Masai went to Casey after last season and said "tell me what you want...how do you want to play? What type of players do you want?"

Based on the success of last years team and the relatively short term contracts given or taken on to everyone involved (1 year Lou lou, 2 years - Casey, Vasquez, JJ, 3 years - PP) it doesn't seem far fetched.

Given how unsuccessful the last 3/5 of the season has been, hopefully MU says enough and makes a team in his own philosophy.


I am totally talking out of my ass here which hopefully didn't need to be said but I will just in case. The reason I hope this is because if it is not accurate then the franchise continues to be fucked.....royally.

[MACK11]

i actually watched the knicks game and just sat there slack jawed at the knicks play by play guys questioning why we weren't using JV vs Amundson more.

Were 70 games in, it's clear this team will not use JV in any manner. It doesn't matter if 5'9" Isaiah Thomas was guarding him

[Bandit]

i actually watched the knicks game and just sat there slack jawed at the knicks play by play guys questioning why we weren't using JV vs Amundson more.

I'll actually give Leo credit, he was going off pretty hard on our offensive thought process last night. Tearing into our unwillingness to abuse a mis match

[mcHAPPY]

I'll actually give Leo credit, he was going off pretty hard on our offensive thought process last night. Tearing into our unwillingness to abuse a mis match

Leo, like many, doesn't understand that pounding the rock is a process that has to be repeated over and over and over and over again until the desired result is achieved. There are no short cuts to greatness.

[slaw]

This is ugly, uninspiring, unintelligent basketball.

Ugly is a matter of opinion.

Uninspiring? Well, last season you were a fan of a team that hadn't made the playoffs in years and looked doomed to repeat that stellar record for 4 or more years to come. You are now a fan of a team that will have home court in the playoffs two years in a row.

Unintelligent? Maybe. Or maybe it's they're trying to use a set of predominantly one-on-one perimeter guys as best as they can.

Sadly there is very little to enjoy this season, at least for me.

Your choice, obviously, but the alternative was a 15-20 win team that may or may not have any future. Looking at the 2014-15 rookie class outside of Wiggins paints a pretty bleak picture. Yeah, the recent slide has been disappointing but it's all relative to expectations, which were raised significantly ahead of anyone's schedule.

There is always one constant for a raptor fan: maybe next year.

Let's be honest: you won't be satisfied or enjoy anything they do next year anyway. I mean, beyond anyone's expectations when Masai got here they've managed to be a pretty successful team for two years, signed good players like Lowry to very reasonable long term deals, unloaded awful contracts for good assets, and maintained a tonne of flexibility going forward. And you still aren't happy.

[mcHAPPY]

Ugly is a matter of opinion.

Uninspiring? Well, last season you were a fan of a team that hadn't made the playoffs in years and looked doomed to repeat that stellar record for 4 or more years to come. You are now a fan of a team that will have home court in the playoffs two years in a row.

Unintelligent? Maybe. Or maybe it's they're trying to use a set of predominantly one-on-one perimeter guys as best as they can.



Your choice, obviously, but the alternative was a 15-20 win team that may or may not have any future. Looking at the 2014-15 rookie class outside of Wiggins paints a pretty bleak picture. Yeah, the recent slide has been disappointing but it's all relative to expectations, which were raised significantly ahead of anyone's schedule.



Let's be honest: you won't be satisfied or enjoy anything they do next year anyway. I mean, beyond anyone's expectations when Masai got here they've managed to be a pretty successful team for two years, signed good players like Lowry to very reasonable long term deals, unloaded awful contracts for good assets, and maintained a tonne of flexibility going forward. And you still aren't happy.

Last year I was surprised as anyone but come the end of season and playoffs I was most definitely not a fan of the style of play and results. I was public about that as well.

This year they were 24-7 and I was stating it was unsustainable. Took a lot of heat at the time too. They've since gone 18-21.

A 15-20 win team with hope for the future is not a bad thing, at least in my opinion. Milwaukee and Utah are good examples of where that can go. Of course everyone looks at Philly......... Always multiple outcomes.

Your last paragraph is your opinion of my opinion which is poppycock. I am very well aware of what Masai has done and continue to be one of his strongest supporters. I believe I was the one who first posted the idea of MU not having much choice in carrying on with this core (playing the hand he was dealt is how I phrased it initially) when a number of others have stepped up of late calling out Masai and anyone who doesn't blame him for the downward spiral. I was also one of the few who said his claim at the trade deadline about no moves being a vote of confidence was b.s. It is obvious changes are needed now and I can only hope the change in media tone is coming from the top down within the organization.

Fire Casey and trade DeRozan for good return will do wonders for this organization and my optimism....both short term and long term.

[S.R.]

Like some of you, I'm also over the disappointment of watching the wheels fall off this season and I'm just looking for some entertaining ball, even if it isn't very good ball, for the rest of the season and into the playoffs. I wanna see more solid games from JV and I'm always interested in how Lowry, JJ, and PP are doing. To be honest I've given up on Ross and I'm hoping DeRozan and Casey are both gone next year.

Expect some more 5 point wins against the worst teams in the league for the remainder of the schedule, resulting in a W/L to close out the year that doesn't look so bad anymore. Guys will say all the right things about stringing wins together and finishing strong, but depending on the matchup the playoffs could be embarrassing. Re: "Just enjoy the playoffs! What do you want, championship or bust!" I remember the Chris Bosh playoff teams, when the Raps were jump shooting front runners who couldn't play a lick of defense, and those years were damn embarrassing. It's not fun watching your team get exposed when the games matter the most. Yeah, I'll be cheering with everybody else, but I'm more excited about the changes that are coming in the next 2 seasons than I am about this year's playoff run. As has been said, there are some solid pieces here and some flexibility is coming for MU. The next step is definitely within reach, but it's not happening this season.

[Cody73]

Hard to enjoy a ride that's so bumpy.

I mean, we are a good team. We have some great players. What we don't have is consistent play on either offense or defense. We don't run any plays, and when we do, it's only against teams that are better than us. Casey seems to take playing down to whole new level, and it's hurting this team in more ways than one. We also aren't playing the right players. I mean, Ross and Lou's minutes need to be cut. I'd rather have a inside game than a outside one if we can win with that inside game.

I mean, what more can we say? The real issue here is Casey and MU giving us a logjam at the 2. I feel like Casey doesn't even know what a real SF is. It makes me cringe on the inside like when I see a cockroach. Not fun.

I can barely listen to games anymore. Yes, I know what this team is, but it'd be nice to exceed my expectations instead of just playing to them.

[WhatRhymesWithCash]

Last year I was surprised as anyone but come the end of season and playoffs I was most definitely not a fan of the style of play and results. I was public about that as well.

This year they were 24-7 and I was stating it was unsustainable. Took a lot of heat at the time too. They've since gone 18-21.

A 15-20 win team with hope for the future is not a bad thing, at least in my opinion. Milwaukee and Utah are good examples of where that can go. Of course everyone looks at Philly......... Always multiple outcomes.

Your last paragraph is your opinion of my opinion which is poppycock. I am very well aware of what Masai has done and continue to be one of his strongest supporters. I believe I was the one who first posted the idea of MU not having much choice in carrying on with this core (playing the hand he was dealt is how I phrased it initially) when a number of others have stepped up of late calling out Masai and anyone who doesn't blame him for the downward spiral. I was also one of the few who said his claim at the trade deadline about no moves being a vote of confidence was b.s. It is obvious changes are needed now and I can only hope the change in media tone is coming from the top down within the organization.

Fire Casey and trade DeRozan for good return will do wonders for this organization and my optimism....both short term and long term.

I think everybody except lowry DD JJ PP JV should be available with many of them bring traded, but trading derozan won't help this team. If not for him we wouldn't have had even 40 wins last year. Remember this slide to hell started when he got injured. ANd yes, everybody talks about how he could be more efficient (which he has been so far in march), he could make better decisions (improving, and he will come around on feeding JV when we have a coaching staff that emphasizes it), he could defend better (also improving), he could blah blah blah. We all talk about his chucking but every team needs someone that can get a shit ton of points and carry the team offensively; unfortunately we have too many of those (one or both of lou and vaz have got to go).

[mcHAPPY]

I think everybody except lowry DD JJ PP JV should be available with many of them bring traded, but trading derozan won't help this team. If not for him we wouldn't have had even 40 wins last year. Remember this slide to hell started when he got injured. ANd yes, everybody talks about how he could be more efficient (which he has been so far in march), he could make better decisions (improving, and he will come around on feeding JV when we have a coaching staff that emphasizes it), he could defend better (also improving), he could blah blah blah. We all talk about his chucking but every team needs someone that can get a shit ton of points and carry the team offensively; unfortunately we have too many of those (one or both of lou and vaz have got to go).

I respect your opinion. It is as good as if not better than my own.

If we had the DeRozan from last year night in and night out, I would agree to keep him. If we had the DeRozan we've seen in March night in and night out ON OFFENSE I'd say keep him. But there is more to the game. And even with the Demar March performance Raps are just 5-6 - 1-5 vs playoff teams.

His injury wasn't downfall of Raps. That happened 16 games after he went out - December 30 OT loss vs portland. Raps were 12-3 when he went out and 23-7 Dec 30.

As an aside, I fundamentally agree to disagree you need a guy to take a lot of bad shots to score points. A bad shot is a bad shot. If you can't create a good shot, give up the ball....unless there is no time on clock of course.

Fwiw, I think firing Casey is a much much much bigger priority than trading DeRozan.

[WhatRhymesWithCash]

I respect your opinion. It is as good as if not better than my own.

If we had the DeRozan from last year night in and night out, I would agree to keep him. If we had the DeRozan we've seen in March night in and night out ON OFFENSE I'd say keep him. But there is more to the game. And even with the Demar March performance Raps are just 5-6 - 1-5 vs playoff teams.

His injury wasn't downfall of Raps. That happened 16 games after he went out - December 30 OT loss vs portland. Raps were 12-3 when he went out and 23-7 Dec 30.

As an aside, I fundamentally agree to disagree you need a guy to take a lot of bad shots to score points. A bad shot is a bad shot. If you can't create a good shot, give up the ball....unless there is no time on clock of course.

Fwiw, I think firing Casey is a much much much bigger priority than trading DeRozan.

I didn't necessarily mean that we need someone to take bad shots to score in volume, because volume scoring and bad shots don't have to go hand in hand. However, I see your point because that's just how it is with Derozan's game and that is what I consider to be the main flaw that we can only hope he eventually fine tunes. He is still 25 and a solution that type of issue does come with maturity. It'll also come when the "coaching staff making him recognize JV" issue is resolved.

[mcHAPPY]

I didn't necessarily mean that we need someone to take bad shots to score in volume, because volume scoring and bad shots don't have to go hand in hand. However, I see your point because that's just how it is with Derozan's game and that is what I consider to be the main flaw that we can only hope he eventually fine tunes. He is still 25 and a solution that type of issue does come with maturity. It'll also come when the "coaching staff making him recognize JV" issue is resolved.

I'd like to give him a shot with another coach.

I feel the risk versus reward is too great though from a few angles:
1) he is an UFA and could walk next summer for nothing,
2) if he doesn't change his value would be really low...right now he still has a recent all-star label and has the injury excuse from many. If he ends this year strong, might not be a better time to trade him.
3) I don't believe he is worth ~$20M which is what I think he is looking for next contract with cap hike. That type of money would handcuff raps for what he brings.


Basically in a nutshell consistency has always been an issue and I don't trust him.


*It is refreshing to have a discussion with a person with different view and be constructive.

[Just Is]

I think everybody except lowry DD JJ PP JV should be available with many of them bring traded, but trading derozan won't help this team. If not for him we wouldn't have had even 40 wins last year. Remember this slide to hell started when he got injured. ANd yes, everybody talks about how he could be more efficient (which he has been so far in march), he could make better decisions (improving, and he will come around on feeding JV when we have a coaching staff that emphasizes it), he could defend better (also improving), he could blah blah blah. We all talk about his chucking but every team needs someone that can get a shit ton of points and carry the team offensively; unfortunately we have too many of those (one or both of lou and vaz have got to go).

The slide didn't happen when Derozan went out. The slide happened about one game after Lowry truly became exhausted (people point to the Portland game as the signifier of the drop in play but I like to use the Denver game since my theory is based on when Lowry couldn't actually hide how tired he actually was).

The only players I don't think should be moved/replaced are JV, Lowry, PP, JJ and TH (didn't think I'd be saying that) at this point. I'm borderline on Lou (only due to cost), GV and Ross. The latter two I think could look good in almost any system other than the one we employ. I'm also leaning heavily towards keeping Hayes and Fields if they can be retained for the minimum.

It's hard to enjoy the ride right now when the road is full of potholes.

[WhatRhymesWithCash]

I'd like to give him a shot with another coach.

I feel the risk versus reward is too great though from a few angles:
1) he is an UFA and could walk next summer for nothing,
2) if he doesn't change his value would be really low...right now he still has a recent all-star label and has the injury excuse from many. If he ends this year strong, might not be a better time to trade him.
3) I don't believe he is worth ~$20M which is what I think he is looking for next contract with cap hike. That type of money would handcuff raps for what he brings.


Basically in a nutshell consistency has always been an issue and I don't trust him.


*It is refreshing to have a discussion with a person with different view and be constructive.

lol kinda weird that I'm going back to this months later but amidst all the offseason RR chaos and with the trade DD talks/hostilities at code freaking red levels, it truly was refreshing to go back to this constructive debate.