Everything 2024 Draft

[DanH]

My point is Masai traded for Jak to complement Fred coz he intended to keep Fred which was obviously the wrong move.
A top 7 C will not take years. Koloko was drafted in the 2nd round and he would have been very useful now.

I think he traded for Jak because he recognized the value a real C brings after two seasons of absolute mess dragging that team through the mud where the best C option they had was Khem Birch, which tells you all you need to know.

What is a "top 7" C? Centers are long known to be the position that takes the longest to develop, especially on the defensive end. Too much of that position is in the communication, preventative motion, knowing where to be, reading offences, and just instincts in balancing contests with rebounding and learning how to deal with cleaning up everyone else's messes. It usually takes time. Yes, sometimes you get a guy who absolutely pops on that end right from the start. But they almost always have other huge holes in their game - or else is like a generational talent.

[planetmars]

My point is Masai traded for Jak to complement Fred coz he intended to keep Fred which was obviously the wrong move.
A top 7 C will not take years. Koloko was drafted in the 2nd round and he would have been very useful now.

I liked Koloko but he was still super raw offensively. Who knows if he could ever become a reliable shooter.. or if he would have just been another rim runner like a Capela or Jordan.

We talk about the Jak trade a lot.. I don't care about the trade for the pick. I just don't want it to convey when we are so close to keeping it. Ultimately the failure was the Thad trade. That set us back. Thad was at best a 10th man.

That was the year to trade for a real center. Porzingis we know was available for example and we said no to that deal. There was also a rumour where we got Nerlens Noel and Horton-Tucker from the Knicks/Lakers with Dragic going to NY and some pieces going to LA. I think the Lakers decided to end up going with Russ instead that deadline and that trade died.

I believe both Turner/Jak were available for 2 picks that same deadline. Of course rumours are rumours and this is mostly hindsight talking anyway.. but giving up 2 picks would have been the smart deal. We might not have had Koloko or whoever the 2024 pick ends up.. but we don't have Koloko anyway now.. and that 2024 pick could be gone too.

[DanH]

I liked Koloko but he was still super raw offensively. Who knows if he could ever become a reliable shooter.. or if he would have just been another rim runner like a Capela or Jordan.

We talk about the Jak trade a lot.. I don't care about the trade for the pick. I just don't want it to convey when we are so close to keeping it. Ultimately the failure was the Thad trade. That set us back. Thad was at best a 10th man.

That was the year to trade for a real center. Porzingis we know was available for example and we said no to that deal. There was also a rumour where we got Nerlens Noel and Horton-Tucker from the Knicks/Lakers with Dragic going to NY and some pieces going to LA. I think the Lakers decided to end up going with Russ instead that deadline and that trade died.

I believe both Turner/Jak were available for 2 picks that same deadline. Of course rumours are rumours and this is mostly hindsight talking anyway.. but giving up 2 picks would have been the smart deal. We might not have had Koloko or whoever the 2024 pick ends up.. but we don't have Koloko anyway now.. and that 2024 pick could be gone too.

Writing off Koloko is a bit of hindsightism. Can't do much about random health issues that pop up.

That said, I agree that they should have made a move for a C sooner. Watching them try to do it without one was painful, and Thad was no solution to anything (they obviously thought their guy was still going to be there 10 picks later and I'm pretty sure he was). Noel was also not an answer and I wouldn't have wanted to give up any value in such a deal.

But the value on the eventual Jak deal is good, considering they got him for half the pick price. Just missed their window with that core. But he fits just fine in a Scottie and shooters core, which is what we've pivoted to anyway.

[Yuri Gagarin]

The first C picked after 7th in each of the last three drafts I wudda preferred over Poeltl. Lively, Duren, Sengun. And Sengun is getting 3.5m a year. Thats 17m and we have 30m to spend? So that wudda been 47m in cap soace. Huge difference. And thats not even including guys like Cason if we didnt want to get a C

we’re rebuilding Id rather C’s with lower floor and higher ceiling than poeltls higher floor lower ceiling

there will be a flipowski or a missi we miss out on no doubt. Maybe SA will draft flipowski or missi and we can give them 4 firsts for them in a few years ya

[planetmars]

Writing off Koloko is a bit of hindsightism. Can't do much about random health issues that pop up.

That said, I agree that they should have made a move for a C sooner. Watching them try to do it without one was painful, and Thad was no solution to anything (they obviously thought their guy was still going to be there 10 picks later and I'm pretty sure he was). Noel was also not an answer and I wouldn't have wanted to give up any value in such a deal.

But the value on the eventual Jak deal is good, considering they got him for half the pick price. Just missed their window with that core. But he fits just fine in a Scottie and shooters core, which is what we've pivoted to anyway.

What I still find strange from that Thad deal is they also got Drew Eubanks in that deal and then waived him. He's no star, but he would have been an upgrade at least. Yet we decided to just stick with Scottie/OG/Thad as our center rotation. And then continued with that into the following season until they finally found a way to get Jak.

Again that trade derailed the Nick/Pascal/OG/Fred era. They got the wrong player. They waived the right player. And then had to take another 6 months into the next season to fix the problem.. but by then it was too late. By the end of that season Nick was already out the door. Fred left to for more money. OG got unhappy and wanted out and Pascal got ghosted by the team and was then also moved finally.

[golden]

Turner wasn't really available like that. It's just rumors.

Turner was totally available. The price was 2 FRPs, which was widely reported. Nobody wanted to pay that, especially since Turner was expiring and he was injured at the time (which is still a risk with him). There was also a report that a young prospect (e.g. Precious) and a FRP could've gotten the deal done. Pacers didn't get anybody stepping up to match their price, so they smartly used their massive cap-space and signed him to a reasonable deal.

Having said all that... Pacers are a bottom 5 defense, so Turner doesn't really do much for you as a defensive anchor.

[golden]

I liked Koloko but he was still super raw offensively. Who knows if he could ever become a reliable shooter.. or if he would have just been another rim runner like a Capela or Jordan.

We talk about the Jak trade a lot.. I don't care about the trade for the pick. I just don't want it to convey when we are so close to keeping it. Ultimately the failure was the Thad trade. That set us back. Thad was at best a 10th man.

That was the year to trade for a real center. Porzingis we know was available for example and we said no to that deal. There was also a rumour where we got Nerlens Noel and Horton-Tucker from the Knicks/Lakers with Dragic going to NY and some pieces going to LA. I think the Lakers decided to end up going with Russ instead that deadline and that trade died.

I believe both Turner/Jak were available for 2 picks that same deadline. Of course rumours are rumours and this is mostly hindsight talking anyway.. but giving up 2 picks would have been the smart deal. We might not have had Koloko or whoever the 2024 pick ends up.. but we don't have Koloko anyway now.. and that 2024 pick could be gone too.

Bitadze was the big miss last season, if we absolutely needed to add a real center to "further evaluate" (smh) the FVV/OG/Siakam core. It would've cost zero. He claimed off waivers and was/is having a breakout defensive season this year with the Magic and they were winning big until WCJ got healthy and they had to start him, because WCJ is their future C and signed to a long-term contract.

[MixxAOR]

Turner was totally available. The price was 2 FRPs, which was widely reported. Nobody wanted to pay that, especially since Turner was expiring and he was injured at the time (which is still a risk with him). There was also a report that a young prospect (e.g. Precious) and a FRP could've gotten the deal done. Pacers didn't get anybody stepping up to match their price, so they smartly used their massive cap-space and signed him to a reasonable deal.

Having said all that... Pacers are a bottom 5 defense, so Turner doesn't really do much for you as a defensive anchor.

I didn't mean he was untouchable. The deal wasn't there that made sense for Indy and that's all there is to it.

[DanH]

What I still find strange from that Thad deal is they also got Drew Eubanks in that deal and then waived him. He's no star, but he would have been an upgrade at least. Yet we decided to just stick with Scottie/OG/Thad as our center rotation. And then continued with that into the following season until they finally found a way to get Jak.

Again that trade derailed the Nick/Pascal/OG/Fred era. They got the wrong player. They waived the right player. And then had to take another 6 months into the next season to fix the problem.. but by then it was too late. By the end of that season Nick was already out the door. Fred left to for more money. OG got unhappy and wanted out and Pascal got ghosted by the team and was then also moved finally.

They seemed like they really wanted to try the doomed-to-fail small ball crap. Definitely the area where I've felt the biggest disconnect with the front office. Centers are important. And they basically threw the towel on them for two seasons.

I don't think Eubanks would have swung much but yeah, weirdness all around. I'm not super fussed about the value on the deals as I've laid out but the timing (both of the deals and of figuring out that having a C is good) is a bit of a mess.

[Quirk]

Everybody preaches creativity and experimenting, but experiments sometimes fail. I don't fault the team for trying things, I'm happy when they try to innovate, and also happy they have patience to give their experiments a chance, and also happy they move on. Farwell to vision 6'9, onwards to .5 offence showtime raptors.

[golden]

Everybody preaches creativity and experimenting, but experiments sometimes fail. I don't fault the team for trying things, I'm happy when they try to innovate, and also happy they have patience to give their experiments a chance, and also happy they move on. Farwell to vision 6'9, onwards to .5 offence showtime raptors.

As somebody who has started multiple companies.... in business you need to fail fast and fail cheap. Masai takes notoriously long to evaluate and also is willing to pump more assets into the evaluation to give it a chance. We can't say that Masai failed fast & failed cheap betting on the FVV/Siakam/OG core.

Executives are paid exponentially higher than ordinary joes, largely for their ability to forecast accurately, based upon limitation information before it's available to the general market or competition.

[Quirk]

As somebody who has started multiple companies.... in business you need to fail fast and fail cheap. Masai takes notoriously long to evaluate and also is willing to pump more assets into the evaluation to give it a chance. We can't say that Masai failed fast & failed cheap betting on the FVV/Siakam/OG core.

Executives are paid exponentially higher than ordinary joes, largely for their ability to forecast accurately, based upon limitation information before it's available to the general market or competition.

I would love to compete against your companies. Easy prey no doubt.

Yes, fail fast we all know that cliche.

Patience is also required to achieve something great. Panicking and changing tracks at the first sign of trouble ain't it

[golden]

I would love to compete against your companies. Easy prey no doubt.

Yes, fail fast we all know that cliche.

Patience is also required to achieve something great. Panicking and changing tracks at the first sign of trouble ain't it

You obviously don't understand the actual execution of the axiom... it's more than a cliche, when applied properly. It's a process for continuously and quickly improving your product, based upon market feedback, after getting out minimal viable offering. Sometimes you need to tweak a feature or two, sometimes you need to change a core platform, sometimes you do need to exit that market entirely. The entire cycle does require both patience and quick feedback loops. It's not an either/or.

It should've been pretty obvious early on to Masai that the FVV/OG/Siakam core wasn't going to be competing for championships... they are pseudo-stars. But it was also obvious that they would eventually demand/command the salaries of a championship core, making it difficult to improve the team. But Masai kept tweaking and investing assets in the core, as if that was somehow going to change the ceiling.

[MixxAOR]

It was obvious that FVV/OG/Siakam weren't enough. And front office knew it. But pursuit of Giannis in free agency and Raptors being attached to all All-Star names in rumors makes me think they were never meant to be end game. They tried to pull off another Kawhi like situation but Toronto as a market is not appealing so they dropped that idea.

[Quirk]

For sure it's me that misunderstands, after all you probably read a blink about it.

Quick iteration, pathfinding, etc. are great for relatively commonplace goals, these are ways to find your way to things like product market fit, or a certain experience outcome.

That alone isn't enough to achieve something great, really uncommon, like having among the best winning percentage in the league during your time with an NBA team, and winning a championship.

Doing something great requires much more than quick iteration, it requires leadership, vision, persistents and patience too.

Your minimally vialable outcome needs to prove a hypothesis , that's it's purpose. This means you have to have a hypothesis in he first place, and run it for enough mileage to conclusively prrove or disprove it while continuosly course correcting in rapid iterations based on your learnings. These iterations retain the hypothesis tho, pivoting away from your hypothesis should be done with care.

Fail fast simply means only do enough to prove or disprove a hypothesis In terms of basketball philosophy, giving an approach a year or two doesn't seem unreasonable.