Where do you rate DD among the two's in the NBA?

[Abbas]

are you implying that he was ever in the top three?

yes last season

[YoungGunRaptor]

are you implying that he was ever in the top three?

Demar was a top 3 SG last season

[Abbas]

Demar was a top 3 SG last season

and im sure come play off time he'll be back in the top 3

[DDelight]

Demar was a top 3 SG last season

Yea... i mean he was definitely better than Butler last year. And Klay only really emerged this season. Wade was inconsistent and injured. So DeMar was hovering around top 3, definitely top 5 last season.

[DogeLover1234]

Yea... i mean he was definitely better than Butler last year. And Klay only really emerged this season. Wade was inconsistent and injured. So DeMar was hovering around top 3, definitely top 5 last season.

Oh thought he meant start of this season. Cant remember who all was really good last year lol but 5ish sounds right

[Bonus Jonas]

SGs better than him:

Butler
Healthy wade
harden
klay
wes matthews
healthy kobe
Ellis is debatable
Maybe Hayward

7-10 seems right.


Come on man that's ridiculous.

Healthy kobe doesn't really exist anymore so I'd put DD ahead of him.

And I thought Hayward was a SF, doesn't Utah play Burke/Exum and Burks in the backcourt??

Wes is debatable as he's a 3&D.

Only guys I think are for sure are Harden, Klay, Butler, and healthy Wade(again an asterisk on this guy)

Definitely have DD 4-7 with Ellis, Wade, Beal and maybe Korver

[OldSkoolCool]

You guys confuse individual talent and team worth all the time.

DD is pretty good in a head to head in-a-vacuum comparison of wing players. But this is a team game and you have to look at what a player brings to the team that actually impacts the game.

(All stats run for MP > 22.5)

For example, wing players with Net Ratings higher than DD:

Klay
Igoudala
Reddick
Tony Allen
Korver
Danny Green
Ginobli
Lou Williams
Wesley Matthews
Harden
Middleton
Beal
Anthony Morrow
Butler
Ellis
JR Smith
Shumpert
Crawford
CJ Miles
Lee
Tyreke Evans


Then look at players with higher ORat:

Klay
Reddick
Lou Williams
Korver
Igoudala
Ross
Crawford
JR Smith
Danny Green
Harden
Tyreke Evans
Ellis

Then look at players with a higher TS% on >22% Usage:

Harden
Klay
Lou Williams
Kevin Martin
Ginobili
Wade
Crawford
Stuckey
Oladipo
Mayo
Nick Young
Beal
Wiggins
CJ Miles
Ellis

Then look at NBA.coms PIE:

Harden
Wade
Butler
Klay
Bryant
Stuckey
Lou Williams
Tyreke Evans
Ginobili
Middleton

So a list of players that are definitely better than him in terms of impact on the game:

Harden
Wade
Bulter
Klay
Tyreke Evans
Middleton
Ginobili
Danny Green
JJ Reddick
Korver
Igoudala
Matthews

List of players who are arguably better based on team impact:

Hayward
Batum
Parsons
Ariza


List of players who are still very young, but will be better than DD:

Wiggins
Oladipo
McLemore
Giannis
Parker

Ya, you guys who think DD is a top 5 guy are smoking some funky stuff

[JawsGT]

You guys confuse individual talent and team worth all the time.

DD is pretty good in a head to head in-a-vacuum comparison of wing players. But this is a team game and you have to look at what a player brings to the team that actually impacts the game.

(All stats run for MP > 22.5)

For example, wing players with Net Ratings higher than DD:

Klay
Igoudala
Reddick
Tony Allen
Korver
Danny Green
Ginobli
Lou Williams
Wesley Matthews
Harden
Middleton
Beal
Anthony Morrow
Butler
Ellis
JR Smith
Shumpert
Crawford
CJ Miles
Lee
Tyreke Evans


Then look at players with higher ORat:

Klay
Reddick
Lou Williams
Korver
Igoudala
Ross
Crawford
JR Smith
Danny Green
Harden
Tyreke Evans
Ellis

Then look at players with a higher TS% on >22% Usage:

Harden
Klay
Lou Williams
Kevin Martin
Ginobili
Wade
Crawford
Stuckey
Oladipo
Mayo
Nick Young
Beal
Wiggins
CJ Miles
Ellis

Then look at NBA.coms PIE:

Harden
Wade
Butler
Klay
Bryant
Stuckey
Lou Williams
Tyreke Evans
Ginobili
Middleton

So a list of players that are definitely better than him in terms of impact on the game:

Harden
Wade
Bulter
Klay
Tyreke Evans
Middleton
Ginobili
Danny Green
JJ Reddick
Korver
Igoudala
Matthews

List of players who are arguably better based on team impact:

Hayward
Batum
Parsons
Ariza


List of players who are still very young, but will be better than DD:

Wiggins
Oladipo
McLemore
Giannis
Parker

Ya, you guys who think DD is a top 5 guy are smoking some funky stuff

Are you sure you're not the one looking at things in a vacuum? I'm sorry, neither Reddick or Korver are better basketball players than Demar. They are better 3pt shooters and better off the ball players. Switch either of them with Demar and our team gets much worse. Context is everything in the NBA. At the end of the day one has to decide what one needs from the position in question. And given our current personnel and system, there are a bunch of players of your list which just wouldn't be better than Demar is for the team. Stuckey, Mayo, Nick Young? Dude, you know better than that. And if 3pt shooting is what you want from the the SG spot, than great, Korver would be awesome. But what you gonna do to get him the ball? Our system isn't gonna get great shooters good looks consistently. That's the way it is. Buy hey, if CJ Miles has a better TS% than Demar, than I guess clearly he is the better player.

[OldSkoolCool]

Are you sure you're not the one looking at things in a vacuum? I'm sorry, neither Reddick or Korver are better basketball players than Demar. They are better 3pt shooters and better off the ball players. Switch either of them with Demar and our team gets much worse. Context is everything in the NBA. At the end of the day one has to decide what one needs from the position in question. And given our current personnel and system, there are a bunch of players of your list which just wouldn't be better than Demar is for the team. Stuckey, Mayo, Nick Young? Dude, you know better than that. And if 3pt shooting is what you want from the the SG spot, than great, Korver would be awesome. But what you gonna do to get him the ball? Our system isn't gonna get great shooters good looks consistently. That's the way it is. Buy hey, if CJ Miles has a better TS% than Demar, than I guess clearly he is the better player.

Bold 1: Yes they are. Based on the context of what they do for their teams. Both guys play a very similar roles in their offense and are very good at it. They open up a ton of open opportunities for their teammates. DD waves them off and drives into 2 defenders for a fade away 2....

Bold 2: I didn't say that. Fail on your part.

Bold 3: Yes, I listed players who were more efficient than DD as part of a basis for who is better. And CJ Miles has a better TS%, but no I did not say CJ Miles was better. Fail on your part again.

If you are going to ridicule someone for their post, please read it properly before replying

Otherwise to me it makes you look like

Who knows _____

Oh and I forgot, the list puts DD ranked 22 in the league. A long cry off "top 5"

[ebrian]

One thing that really bothers me about DeRozan is how horrible his accuracy is. For a guy who attempts almost 17 shots per game, there is nobody else nearly as low of a shooting percentage as DeRozan, and that's not just this season. DeMar DeRozan is literally making history here.

There are a total of 5 players in the history of the game who has shot 41% or lower while averaging more than 16 field goal attempts per game. DeMar DeRozan, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce, Jamal Crawford (twice) and Stephen Jackson. Of these, only Stephen Jackson and DeRozan were playing on a winning team. That's because when you do something like that (attempt a whole bunch of shots and shoot horribly), it's detrimental towards winning games.

Now you might say DeRozan gets to the line a lot, so we should consider TS% since it accounts for free throws. Well, DeRozan is top 5 in FTA but averaging just 50.6 TS%. Going back to the NBA history books, looking at guards only, DeRozan is just amongst 4 others again who averaged below 51% TS and shot the ball 16+ times per game -- Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Monta Ellis, Jamal Crawford. Again, no winning teams amongst those occurrences.

[OldSkoolCool]

One thing that really bothers me about DeRozan is how horrible his accuracy is. For a guy who attempts almost 17 shots per game, there is nobody else nearly as low of a shooting percentage as DeRozan, and that's not just this season. DeMar DeRozan is literally making history here.

There are a total of 5 players in the history of the game who has shot 41% or lower while averaging more than 16 field goal attempts per game. DeMar DeRozan, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce, Jamal Crawford (twice) and Stephen Jackson. Of these, only Stephen Jackson and DeRozan were playing on a winning team. That's because when you do something like that (attempt a whole bunch of shots and shoot horribly), it's detrimental towards winning games.

Now you might say DeRozan gets to the line a lot, so we should consider TS% since it accounts for free throws. Well, DeRozan is top 5 in FTA but averaging just 50.6 TS%. Going back to the NBA history books, looking at guards only, DeRozan is just amongst 4 others again who averaged below 51% TS and shot the ball 16+ times per game -- Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Monta Ellis, Jamal Crawford. Again, no winning teams amongst those occurrences.

Well put

Playing like he does means "addition by subtraction" to me. Can't win with him playing that way (and that's who he is)

[JawsGT]

Bold 1: Yes they are. Based on the context of what they do for their teams. Both guys play a very similar roles in their offense and are very good at it. They open up a ton of open opportunities for their teammates. DD waves them off and drives into 2 defenders for a fade away 2....

Bold 2: I didn't say that. Fail on your part.

Bold 3: Yes, I listed players who were more efficient than DD as part of a basis for who is better. And CJ Miles has a better TS%, but no I did not say CJ Miles was better. Fail on your part again.

If you are going to ridicule someone for their post, please read it properly before replying

Otherwise to me it makes you look like

Who knows _____

Oh and I forgot, the list puts DD ranked 22 in the league. A long cry off "top 5"

First off, wasn't ridiculing. Just trying to have a convo but your on the defensive so I get it. But if you think I'm a crow that knows shit, then ok. But hey, you were the one using stats in a vacuum to suggest that a bunch of two guards are better than Demar. If there was some other way to interpret your post, then I'd like to hear it. You suggested context was needed, but did nothing to show it. Also, I never said Demar was top5, although I think he is pretty damn close.

And if you think Reddick and Korver do more for the success of their respective clubs than Demar does for the Raps, than that's what you think and I know nothing I say would change that. But if you weren't suggesting that all those players are better than Demar, than I do not know the point of your post. Please feel free to "retaliate" with some "context" perhaps.

[OldSkoolCool]

First off, wasn't ridiculing. Just trying to have a convo but your on the defensive so I get it. But if you think I'm a crow that knows shit, then ok. But hey, you were the one using stats in a vacuum to suggest that a bunch of two guards are better than Demar. If there was some other way to interpret your post, then I'd like to hear it. You suggested context was needed, but did nothing to show it. Also, I never said Demar was top5, although I think he is pretty damn close.

And if you think Reddick and Korver do more for the success of their respective clubs than Demar does for the Raps, than that's what you think and I know nothing I say would change that. But if you weren't suggesting that all those players are better than Demar, than I do not know the point of your post. Please feel free to "retaliate" with some "context" perhaps.

1) Listed players with Net Rating, TS%, ORat, and PIE > DD to establish a pool of names who have some statistical evidence for being better than DD offensively.

2) Drew from those names to establish a list of players who were definitely better. Statistically based as well as role within their team. Ex) Harden

3) Chose players based on their eye-test impact, because they did not have the statistical backing. Ex) Batum, Ariza, Hayward

4) Chose players based on potential > DD. Ex) Wiggins

Last 3 lists are the relevant ones. In Summary:

Harden
Wade
Bulter
Klay
Tyreke Evans
Middleton
Ginobili
Danny Green
JJ Reddick
Korver
Igoudala
Matthews
Hayward
Batum
Parsons
Ariza
Wiggins
Oladipo
McLemore
Giannis
Parker

Are better than DD

[MixxAOR]

1) Listed players with Net Rating, TS%, ORat, and PIE > DD to establish a pool of names who have some statistical evidence for being better than DD offensively.

2) Drew from those names to establish a list of players who were definitely better. Statistically based as well as role within their team. Ex) Harden

3) Chose players based on their eye-test impact, because they did not have the statistical backing. Ex) Batum, Ariza, Hayward

4) Chose players based on potential > DD. Ex) Wiggins

Last 3 lists are the relevant ones. In Summary:

Harden
Wade
Bulter
Klay
Tyreke Evans
Middleton
Ginobili
Danny Green
JJ Reddick
Korver
Igoudala
Matthews
Hayward
Batum
Parsons
Ariza
Wiggins
Oladipo
McLemore
Giannis
Parker

Are better than DD

might as well add Lebron, Melo, Rudy Gay if you included SFs like Hayward, Ariza and Parsons. Wiggins will be SF too.

[JawsGT]

1) Listed players with Net Rating, TS%, ORat, and PIE > DD to establish a pool of names who have some statistical evidence for being better than DD offensively.

2) Drew from those names to establish a list of players who were definitely better. Statistically based as well as role within their team. Ex) Harden

3) Chose players based on their eye-test impact, because they did not have the statistical backing. Ex) Batum, Ariza, Hayward

4) Chose players based on potential > DD. Ex) Wiggins

Last 3 lists are the relevant ones. In Summary:

Harden
Wade
Bulter
Klay
Tyreke Evans
Middleton
Ginobili
Danny Green
JJ Reddick
Korver
Igoudala
Matthews
Hayward
Batum
Parsons
Ariza
Wiggins
Oladipo
McLemore
Giannis
Parker

Are better than DD

Fair enough. But I wouldn't include Ariza, Parsons, Batum, Hayward, Iggy, Giannis and maybe Middleton as I'd consider them SF's. And even if I were to include them, then the only edge they have is D, although I could see an argument for Hayward as being as good or better than Demar offensively as well. The rest aren't more gifted offensively as Demar is IMO. I also can't consider 3pt specialists as being better than Demar, despite how good they may be at that skill or how valuable that skill is to the success of their respective teams. 3pt specialists are only as effective as their teammates and systems allow for IMO. And then you have 3&D guys like Matthews, who's success is as dependent on LA and Lillard than his own abilities. Wiggins, Oladipo and Parker are too young for me to suggest are better than Demar. At this point I do not think they are, but they may be in the near future. McLemore I do not think is better than Demar. But again, if I had one of the best big men in the game and a good scoring wing like Gay on my team, than sure I'd probably take Mclemore over Demar for obvious reasons. But I do not think this means he is better. Green, also looked like crap outside of the Spurs system. I don't think Tyreke is as good as Demar either.

Given our system and personnel, the only players on your list I would take over Demar are Harden, Butler, and Klay. Wade is obviously better, but I wouldn't take him due to his health issues. Wiggins I'd probably take due to his enormous potential, but I don't think he is presently as good as Demar.

And given your analysis, I'm surprised Kawhi, Afflalo, and Ellis never made your list.