Where do you rate DD among the two's in the NBA?

[DDelight]

I think you misinterpreted what he said. He said that the other wing player doesnt break the defense down, the pg is the one who breaks the defense down on those teams. And actually reddick is a lot more than just a 3 pt shooter

OK fair enough, but DeMar does break down the defense. You need someone to do it for those guys to be most effective and DeMar has been our best one doing that of late without Lowry. And like I mentioned before Lowry wasn't even doing that great a job of it prior to injury. We still need someone to be doing that on the Raptors for these primarily 3 point shooting guys to be most effective. Anyways, I don't want to go on about who's better between Reddick/Korver or DeMar. DeMar is clearly better.

[Garbo]

*Where do you rate DD*
I refuse to participate in this discussion until the title is fixed

[DogeLover1234]

OK fair enough, but DeMar does break down the defense. You need someone to do it for those guys to be most effective and DeMar has been our best one doing that of late without Lowry. And like I mentioned before Lowry wasn't even doing that great a job of it prior to injury. We still need someone to be doing that on the Raptors for these primarily 3 point shooting guys to be most effective. Anyways, I don't want to go on about who's better between Reddick/Korver or DeMar. DeMar is clearly better.

They are hard to compare because they play much different roles for theor teams. In a vacuum i agree that DD is the best, but i dont think he is better suited than korver to play in atlantas offense. He also wouldnt be better than reddick for the clips.

Purely based on the eye test, it seems like DD rarely drives and kicks but only ever drives to score. Which honestly is probably good because it means he isnt settling for outside shots, but it really hinders pp and ross' game

[OldSkoolCool]

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. And therefore if you replace DeRozan who does all that with with Korver or Reddick who NEED DeRozan to do that while they stand at the 3 point line, we would be worse. Ross doesn't have the ability to break down the defense to get those guys the ball. We'd basically have to rely on Kyle who hasn't done that good a job of it. Since Lowry has been out, DeMar has been the primary guy breaking down the defense and kicking the ball out to GV, Ross, and Patterson.

You realize your post actually just proved my point in why those guys would be worse on our team because they wouldnt have a Carroll or Barnes-like player with DeMar gone right?

Yeah you misunderstood me.

We only need one perimeter guy who can penetrate and kick it out, generally speaking the PG.

We need a wing who can receive the pass out and swing it to the open man quickly. DD often stops the ball or is required to drive since he can't shoot. Basically him being on the floor inhibits any solid team ball movement. That is a massive detriment to shooters...

The other option for getting the ball inside should be through post entry (ATL is very good at this, even though they only finish 5% of their plays with a post up)

OK fair enough, but DeMar does break down the defense. You need someone to do it for those guys to be most effective and DeMar has been our best one doing that of late without Lowry. And like I mentioned before Lowry wasn't even doing that great a job of it prior to injury. We still need someone to be doing that on the Raptors for these primarily 3 point shooting guys to be most effective. Anyways, I don't want to go on about who's better between Reddick/Korver or DeMar. DeMar is clearly better.

Because Lowry is injured is not a good reason to base the roster around DD....

They are hard to compare because they play much different roles for theor teams. In a vacuum i agree that DD is the best, but i dont think he is better suited than korver to play in atlantas offense. He also wouldnt be better than reddick for the clips.

Purely based on the eye test, it seems like DD rarely drives and kicks but only ever drives to score. Which honestly is probably good because it means he isnt settling for outside shots, but it really hinders pp and ross' game

Exactly. He doesn't make his teammates better with his individual play.

_______

Korver makes everyone better just by walking onto the court. DD would destroy Korver in a game of 1-on-1, but that doesn't mean DD is better at basketball.

[Axel]

Yup. Based mostly on potential, though he has shown flashes. Mostly the Kings are a disaster due to Vivek, so we can expect that 3 different coaches in a season may not work best for production.

As bat shit crazy as Vivek is, it's fair to say that the Kings were a mess before he took over.

McLemore has been a pretty big disappointed so far. He was a high potential guy, so he's not a lost cause, but definitely a disappointment.

[golden]

As bat shit crazy as Vivek is, it's fair to say that the Kings were a mess before he took over.

McLemore has been a pretty big disappointed so far. He was a high potential guy, so he's not a lost cause, but definitely a disappointment.

Vivek is actually quite intelligent (like, genius level), but he's trying waaay to hard to find that un-conventional strategy that everybody overlooked which he thinks will give the Kings a big competitive advantage. Would be cool if he does, though. Apparently that worked for his daughter's high school basketball team and for Alexander the Great. lol.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Positional player comparisons are so hard to make, for so many reasons:
- What is the timeframe? Win now or building for future success?
- Does salary and/or contract status come into play?
- Do teammates and/or style of play impact the comparison?
- Is there a specific role in mind? Is there a preference for traditional 3&D SG or interchangeable wing?


1. Straight-up trade for current Raptors roster

I think DeRozan is one of the few SGs who are capable of doing what he needs to do for this Raptors team, so he'd easily be top-3/5. That being said, I'm not really a fan of the Raptors system on either end of the court, and I hate the volume-scoring hero-ball that DeRozan seems to be asked to play so often.


2. Team building from scratch for sustainable success

I don't think there's a chance that DeRozan is near the top-10, when you factor age, salary, contract status, skill/potential, etc... When building a team the 'right' way (obviously a subjective term), DeRozan doesn't bring the skillset that I'd look for from a starting SG. When I look at those other factors, he doesn't provide very good value at all, especially since he's pretty much maxed out his potential, while staring down an opt-out and likely $14-18M per year going forward.


Obviously those scenarios only provide 2 contexts for developing a positional rankings list, but there are many more and they're all subjective. No surprise there's so many differing opinions and so much arguing.

[Axel]

Vivek is actually quite intelligent (like, genius level), but he's trying waaay to hard to find that un-conventional strategy that everybody overlooked which he thinks will give the Kings a big competitive advantage. Would be cool if he does, though. Apparently that worked for his daughter's high school basketball team and for Alexander the Great. lol.

The fact that he believes that he can translate strategic applications from his daughter's 6th grade (not high school) basketball team, and apply it to the NBA with similar success proves that he is, scientifically speaking, bat shit crazy.

Not to mention, full court press with 9 yr olds is BS since most kids at that age aren't strong enough to make the pass distance necessary to break the press. Teaches horrible lessons (win at all costs) and doesn't develop skills.

[golden]

The fact that he believes that he can translate strategic applications from his daughter's 6th grade (not high school) basketball team, and apply it to the NBA with similar success proves that he is, scientifically speaking, bat shit crazy.

Not to mention, full court press with 9 yr olds is BS since most kids at that age aren't strong enough to make the pass distance necessary to break the press. Teaches horrible lessons (win at all costs) and doesn't develop skills.

Yeah, a lot of these owners come into the league with massive egos and arrogance, because they've been big winners in the business world. They get humbled real quick. In industry you can enter the right market at the right time and every company can be successful. But in professional sports, somebody HAS to lose every year, which they think could never happen to them. How these control-oriented, successful people react to now being seen as 'losers' is quite interesting to watch (i.e. bat shit crazy). lol.

[Nilanka]

Yeah, a lot of these owners come into the league with massive egos and arrogance, because they've been big winners in the business world. They get humbled real quick. In industry you can enter the right market at the right time and every company can be successful. But in professional sports, somebody HAS to lose every year, which they think could never happen to them. How these control-oriented, successful people react to now being seen as 'losers' is quite interesting to watch (i.e. bat shit crazy). lol.

Prokhorov instantly comes to mind.

[JawsGT]

Positional player comparisons are so hard to make, for so many reasons:
- What is the timeframe? Win now or building for future success?
- Does salary and/or contract status come into play?
- Do teammates and/or style of play impact the comparison?
- Is there a specific role in mind? Is there a preference for traditional 3&D SG or interchangeable wing?


1. Straight-up trade for current Raptors roster

I think DeRozan is one of the few SGs who are capable of doing what he needs to do for this Raptors team, so he'd easily be top-3/5. That being said, I'm not really a fan of the Raptors system on either end of the court, and I hate the volume-scoring hero-ball that DeRozan seems to be asked to play so often.


2. Team building from scratch for sustainable success

I don't think there's a chance that DeRozan is near the top-10, when you factor age, salary, contract status, skill/potential, etc... When building a team the 'right' way (obviously a subjective term), DeRozan doesn't bring the skillset that I'd look for from a starting SG. When I look at those other factors, he doesn't provide very good value at all, especially since he's pretty much maxed out his potential, while staring down an opt-out and likely $14-18M per year going forward.


Obviously those scenarios only provide 2 contexts for developing a positional rankings list, but there are many more and they're all subjective. No surprise there's so many differing opinions and so much arguing.

These are good points. At the end of the day, one has to determine what they want out of the position, and that will depend heavily on the style of play and the capabilities of the rest of the roster. Demar may not be the ideal SG, but in the absence of other great ball handlers and scorers, then you kinda need a guy like Demar. He isn't perfect, but I think he does a decent job for what he is expected to do on this team. Obviously, if you have the choice you would prefer to have a guy like Harden on the team. If you have playmaking and scoring from other positions, then having a really good defender or 3pt shooter at SG is better than having Demar. If not, well, Demar is probably a top5 option right now in the league for getting scoring out of that position, and in a better designed offence, he could probably do his job with better efficiency and have greater impact on other parts of the game.

[Jrice9]

The idea that DeMar's offence can't work for a winning team seems flawed considering the last two years the Raptors are #3, and #9.

He's the #1 option and the Raptors have had good and then great offenses.

Do you skeptics (I hate the word hater lol) think that the offence would be even better if we flipped him for Reddick/Korver

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Do you skeptics (I hate the word hater lol) think that the offence would be even better if we flipped him for Reddick/Korver

No. However, I don't think that LAC/ATL would be any better with DeRozan in their lineups, in place of Reddick/Korver. That's the whole point about role and fit making it hard to compare such vastly different players in a vacuum, even when they play the same position.

If Amir (for example, since he's an expiring contract) was swapped out for a more traditional low-post scorer (ie: Horford, Millsap, Favors), giving the Raptors another inside threat alongside JV, in a more inside-out offensive system, then the answer to your question could be significantly different.

[Jrice9]

No. However, I don't think that LAC/ATL would be any better with DeRozan in their lineups, in place of Reddick/Korver. That's the whole point about role and fit making it hard to compare such vastly different players in a vacuum, even when they play the same position.

If Amir (for example, since he's an expiring contract) was swapped out for a more traditional low-post scorer (ie: Horford, Millsap, Favors), giving the Raptors another inside threat alongside JV, in a more inside-out offensive system, then the answer to your question could be significantly different.

Its a fair point that context matters but I do question how much more effective the Raptors would be offensively without a superstar offensive talent.

The obvious counter point is the Hawks but the Hawks have much better big men with worse but not that much worse guards and also have Korver.

I really do think the source of the Raptors problems this year are far from DeRozan and largely fall on the relative ineffectiveness of virtually every single perimeter defender they have (where I would say DeMar and JJ are the two best respectively) and their very inconsistent play from their big men.

To go back a bit to DeMar on this issue. In a vacuum most teams are not trading DeMar for the players listed. In specific circumstances it might make sense but the Raptors rightfully would want a sweetner in addition to the SGs listed.

I would have him competing with every else in total value other than Harden, Thompson and Butler (Matthews was better but then he tore his achilles so who knows where this is going)

[Axel]

Its a fair point that context matters but I do question how much more effective the Raptors would be offensively without a superstar offensive talent.

)

Personally, I'd like to see this team WITH a superstar offensive talent.