Are you willing to trade Big Val for any of the top 4 picks in this year's draft ?

[Axel]

Since 2000, only 88 rookies have played fewer minutes in their rookie season than Bruno or Bebe.

With the exception of Julius Randle and Royce White (both exceptional circumstances), the list is full of guys like Dennis Horner, Kirk Penney and Sim Bhullar.

Pretty extreme considering both are 1st round picks.

[Axel]

Axel, part of development is teaching players that you have to earn your minutes and that you play to win. Most development goes on off the game court. Do you want guys to feel entitled?

I get you're angry about how it all went down but I view this as all a dress rehearsal. They really shouldn't be any further along than they are currently.

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I'm not angry Apollo, disappointed really, but let's follow this vein of thought.

Ok, so how did the message of "earning minutes" get conveyed? Players like GV and Lou are neither all-stars or future all-stars, yet are given completely free reign to chuck on offence and offer zero resistance on defence.

As a young player on the bench, say Bruno, what I am seeing is that defence doesn't matter as long as you can shoot the 3 ball frequently (not even necessarily well mind you).

Alternatively, if I'm Bebe, I get to watch JV sit for PPatt and half of Amir, so I'm seeing that rebounding, boxing out and rim protection is secondary to floor spacing and hedging on screens. While hedging is certainly a viable defensive skill in some systems, based on overall development, boxing-out, rebounding and rim protection are much more broad skills that would better serve a player like Bebe to becoming a viable rotation big man. I'm also seeing that big men are largely irrelevant compared to guards.

And that doesn't even factor into the play of our "leaders" KL and DD.

If anyone on this roster demonstrates a sense of "entitlement", I would be the "Swag Crew" of KL, DD, GV and Lou. The 4 players who dominate the ball, shoot with reckless abandon and offer little to no defence (although DD was better this year, as a group this was terrible).

In terms of long term development, what message is sent to young players? That if you get into the entitled group, you can play lazy all you want with zero repercussions. I have no problem making young players earn their minutes, but you need to have vets show the young players how to play successful NBA ball. We didn't have that.

[Apollo]

Axel, part of development is teaching players that you have to earn your minutes and that you play to win. Most development goes on off the game court. Do you want guys to feel entitled?

I get you're angry about how it all went down but I view this as all a dress rehearsal. They really shouldn't be any further along than they are currently.

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[Axel]

I think that's extreme. Most rebuilding teams don't perform the way the Raptors have been. We don't know what Ujiri's goals are for the team either. For all we know the goal at this point might have been player development along with making the playoffs for the first time. Meanwhile they've beaten that and won a lot of regular season games.

Ujiri might blame himself more than Casey, that's a possibility. The X factor player in the series was Paul Pierce, the old vet who brought priceless leadership and experience to a young team; he also produced and showed the young guys the way. The Raptors don't have that but they clearly need a guy like that.

Long story short, we don't know anything but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Raptors because we only see the product. Ujiri is also difficult to predict so just because A + B = C, that doesn't mean A - C = B...

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All fair points.

If the goal was develop, I'm skeptical. JV had his minutes go down. Bebe and Bruno combined for 46 minutes played (Steimsma played 66 by himself). Hard to develop when you are playing 28 yr old expiring Lou Williams 25 MPG off the bench.

If the goal was winning in the playoffs (which is what I believe it was), then that was clearly a fail. Losing in 7 to Brooklyn last year is night and day compared to 4 straight blow-outs to the Wiz.

Casey claimed he did "everything he could" defensively ("except the zone"), yet solid vet defenders like James Johnson, and Landry Fields played a combined 12 minutes. When Paul Pierce, 38 yrs young, starts going off, you don't play Greivis "I'm a frickin Point Guard" Vasquez at SF. JJ or Fields would have been our best defenders for that match-up.

And I don't subscribe to the "only way to get back into it is by scoring" theory. That might work in a single game, but over 4 straight debacles, you find ways to shore up your defence, usually by playing strong defenders.

If the goal was simply to win the division, then I guess that's a success although largely by default.

[Apollo]

I would agree, except if Casey is back, cause then all bets are off and all faith in Masai is gone.

I think that's extreme. Most rebuilding teams don't perform the way the Raptors have been. We don't know what Ujiri's goals are for the team either. For all we know the goal at this point might have been player development along with making the playoffs for the first time. Meanwhile they've beaten that and won a lot of regular season games.

Ujiri might blame himself more than Casey, that's a possibility. The X factor player in the series was Paul Pierce, the old vet who brought priceless leadership and experience to a young team; he also produced and showed the young guys the way. The Raptors don't have that but they clearly need a guy like that.

Long story short, we don't know anything but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Raptors because we only see the product. Ujiri is also difficult to predict so just because A + B = C, that doesn't mean A - C = B...

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[Axel]

Right, so there goes that idea. Best bet is finding someone that fits via a trade or through the draft later. I don't think they should trade him. JV will be worth more down the road and the Raptors aren't contenders.

Ujiri won't trade the guy, it doesn't make sense. He's about maximizing returns.

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I would agree, except if Casey is back, cause then all bets are off and all faith in Masai is gone.

[Apollo]

Right, so there goes that idea. Best bet is finding someone that fits via a trade or through the draft later. I don't think they should trade him. JV will be worth more down the road and the Raptors aren't contenders.

Ujiri won't trade the guy, it doesn't make sense. He's about maximizing returns.

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[Axel]

Here's a question. If you guys who've given up on 22 year old JV want the next shiny new toy, and you're right(hypothetically) , why the hell would I be trading you a top five pick for him if I'm one of those teams?

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Cause the Knicks are dumb is the only rationale I see.

[Apollo]

Here's a question. If you guys who've given up on 22 year old JV want the next shiny new toy, and you're right(hypothetically) , why the hell would I be trading you a top five pick for him if I'm one of those teams?

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[KHD]

Are you talking about this season? Bargs is 29, Vic is 22.

no

[tDotted]

13-game bargnani showed "star potential" too. i'm not sold

Are you talking about this season? Bargs is 29, Vic is 22.

[JimiCliff]

If you're confident that each of the top 4 players in the draft are going to be more than a little better than JV, then you trade him.

Pretty simple.

[yabadabayolo]

This is why i tried ending this arguemnt like 4 replies ago.

I knew all you guys would jump on me and put me on blast because jv is better than the guys in the draft. K cool. I believe u guys. Your right. Jv would probably go top 2 in this draft. Hes a known commodity. Hes a double double machine. Whatever u win

[mcHAPPY]

Hey man. Would you draft Jv number 1 or number 2 in this draaft right now. Do you think he will have a better career than Karl towns, okafor, etc...

What do you think fair value for Jv is then since a top 2 pick isn't enough. What do you want back for Jv.

And buddy there have been a plethora of overplayed wings just lie there are overplayed bigs. Talented players are hard to come by, I understand that

I don't know who will have better career. For all the talk of dd being better off with a different coach, no one has more to gain than JV.

But you haven't read my posts. I've already said if you're cleaning house I'll trade JV for a top 2 pick. This is more because you will have this player for 8-9 years if you want and one would assume the player fits the needs of the team attempting to be built since you'd likely be blowing up current team. But know it is not a sure fire bet hence the listing of #2 draft picks of last 8 years.

If you are trading JV for a draft pick and keeping the same core, it is going to be about 3 years before those guys become impact players above and beyond JV. Even Anthony Davis, who appears to be generational talent, took better part of 2 seasons. So you want to trade JV for a guy who isn't going to be a difference maker until DD is 28 and Lowry is 32?

Talented bigs are much much harder to find. This is not even debatable at all.

[KHD]

Nope. I was crying a river over the fact you wanted to trade a young promising wing for an unknown draft pick in the late first round pick and then go on to say you wouldn't trade a 22 year old c for an unknown top 2 draft pick.

The part about the team trying to compete was never used on my part. I just asked if you'd trade JV for a top pick and you bluntly cherrypicked a bunch of busts that were drafted 2nd overall.

lol, yeah he obviously cherrypicked by giving every 2nd pick for the last 8 years. jesus christ.


Here's the thing about trading for high draft picks. both teams will be highly uncomfortable. The team giving the pick, because they might give away a superstar PLUS the affordable rookie contract and 8/9 years of control on the player. the team giving the established NBA player is taking a huge gamble.

You have no fucking clue how Towns, Winslow, Okafor are going to turn out, whether they will adjust well or not, whether their bodies hold up, etc etc. So why the hell are you so upset that somebody might hesitate to trade a legit double-double center who has shown great potential for that?