What will be MU's next move?

[JimiCliff]

To me, Houston's no-contest switching bigs onto Curry has looked like a total disaster. Analysts have been pointing this out as well.

[Uncle_Si]

I don't know, I still think it's better to try and yin when everyone else is trying to yang. You could dump your "slow" big man, and try to build a fast team, only to find out that you can't get a top tier talent to carry that style, or a well-rounded enough roster to beat the template.

Again, this kind of "copycat" trend is nothing new. It's always happening in the league. Teams either trying to copy another team, or find the next Jordan/Shaq or whoever.

Look at these playoffs. Who has given GSW the most trouble? The team that plays the most different style of ball than them. When Memphis could control the pace/style, GSW couldn't beat them. Now look at GSW's current opponent. Is Houston the team that resembles them the most? They're definitely up there with how they like to run and get up 3s...And they look pretty far from being as good as GSW. They have a really hard time beating them at their own game, and that's pretty much their only option.

I agree to an extent. But, just from a logical perspective, doesn't it make more sense to have players that can guard multiple positions on defence and force mismatches on offence?

The only reason going big worked for Memphis was because they have a top 3 centre and top 5 PF. And golden state still won.

Houston had some injuries and is obviously still a piece away but they did make it to the WCF.

[JimiCliff]

I agree to an extent. But, just from a logical perspective, doesn't it make more sense to have players that can guard multiple positions on defence and force mismatches on offence?

The only reason going big worked for Memphis was because they have a top 3 centre and top 5 PF. And golden state still won.

Houston had some injuries and is obviously still a piece away but they did make it to the WCF.

Golden State is a historically good team. People are saying top-5 ever. That Memphis gave them as much trouble as they did was a minor miracle. (And Z-Bo being a top 5 PF, still, is a very generous assessment.)

Obviously, you want your players to be as versatile as possible. But a 'big' who can legitimately defend smaller wings is almost impossible to find. And, as per the Lowe article, the antidote against this kind of player is to punish him in the post. This is where a player like Jonas is useful.

[Uncle_Si]

Golden State is a historically good team. People are saying top-5 ever. That Memphis gave them as much trouble as they did was a minor miracle. (And Z-Bo being a top 5 PF, still, is a very generous assessment.)

Obviously, you want your players to be as versatile as possible. But a 'big' who can legitimately defend smaller wings is almost impossible to find. And, as per the Lowe article, the antidote against this kind of player is to punish him in the post. This is where a player like Jonas is useful.

Yeah, but if the "big that can legitimately defend smaller wings is almost impossible to find" then what's the necessity of having a player like JV that is the "antidote" against that type of player? By that logic you won't run into those types of players that often which means Jonas value would be diminished.

[Uncle_Si]

Golden State is a historically good team. People are saying top-5 ever. That Memphis gave them as much trouble as they did was a minor miracle. (And Z-Bo being a top 5 PF, still, is a very generous assessment.)

Obviously, you want your players to be as versatile as possible. But a 'big' who can legitimately defend smaller wings is almost impossible to find. And, as per the Lowe article, the antidote against this kind of player is to punish him in the post. This is where a player like Jonas is useful.

Also, GSW beat Memphis by 50 points over the last 3 games of the series and won the series in 6. They didn't give GS that much of a battle.

[JimiCliff]

Also, GSW beat Memphis by 50 points over the last 3 games of the series and won the series in 6. They didn't give GS that much of a battle.

More of a battle than Houston.

And Conley wasn't near 100%.

[JimiCliff]

Yeah, but if the "big that can legitimately defend smaller wings is almost impossible to find" then what's the necessity of having a player like JV that is the "antidote" against that type of player? By that logic you won't run into those types of players that often which means Jonas value would be diminished.

Well, because if you aren't playing a "big that can legitimately defend wings", then you're playing a "big that cannot legitimately defend wings" - i.e., a traditional big. And JV hasn't shown any problems scoring on those guys either.

[ebrian]

I predict Masai's next move will be to hire another assistant coach.

[Uncle_Si]

Well, because if you aren't playing a "big that can legitimately defend wings", then you're playing a "big that cannot legitimately defend wings" - i.e., a traditional big. And JV hasn't shown any problems scoring on those guys either.

The problem isn't scoring. I agree JV can score. But he can't defend guys with a midrange shot and he especially can't defend guys that can step out to the 3 point line. So even if he's playing a "traditional big" with a midrange jumper he can't defend him

[JimiCliff]

The problem isn't scoring. I agree JV can score. But he can't defend guys with a midrange shot and he especially can't defend guys that can step out to the 3 point line. So even if he's playing a "traditional big" with a midrange jumper he can't defend him

I still think this is bullshit until I see him play in anything but the worst system possible for him.

[white men can't jump]

I agree to an extent. But, just from a logical perspective, doesn't it make more sense to have players that can guard multiple positions on defence and force mismatches on offence?

The only reason going big worked for Memphis was because they have a top 3 centre and top 5 PF. And golden state still won.

Houston had some injuries and is obviously still a piece away but they did make it to the WCF.

From a logical perspective that makes sense. But not all guys who can guard multiple positions have similar versatility on O. And not all guys who can force mismatches have versatility on D. So if a team, like GSW in this case, has such a well-built team that they don't suffer those traps when they go small, how do you beat them at that game? And GSW is so stacked with the right kind of pieces at 1-4 that they actually don't have to go small all that much.

MIA was a similar special case, and also partly forced into it by lacking a true C.

Also, what you say about Memphis applies to the "smaller" teams too. GSW would not be able to play their style without Curry. Houston the same thing with Harden. And any LeBron team the same.

So I don't think it's a template you can just start trying to replicate and expect to see results.

*I also think Houston hasn't looked all that impressive at all for pretty much all the playoffs. The Clippers pulled one of the worst choke jobs ever. Don't think Houston would be here otherwise.

[white men can't jump]

The problem isn't scoring. I agree JV can score. But he can't defend guys with a midrange shot and he especially can't defend guys that can step out to the 3 point line. So even if he's playing a "traditional big" with a midrange jumper he can't defend him

Neither can any of the traditional Cs left in the playoffs. Bogut, Mozgov, and Howard all have similar struggles. And I think you're really overplaying how much JV struggles with a big with a midrange game. He struggles when he's forced to cheat or flat out help and then recover to contest. These are once again tied to failures of perimeter defenders and/or the system, as well as for JV's end experience in reading the situation...but I think more the former for the current Raps squad. Don't remember him really struggling in iso situations in the mid-range. And if we're talking against guys like Horford or Bosh, or any face up guy, then that's not really a "traditional big".

[OldSkoolCool]

Re OP

Deaft day deal including at least one of Lowry/DD

[milesbudokai]

We need to go after the desperate teams like Sacremento, New York, and possibly Charlotte. Phil Jackson is trying to build a contender around Melo and will more give up his 4th pick and more for one of Lowry/DD. Kings also want to win now with DMC and Gay, so swaying them into moving their 6th pick AND Stauskas shouldn't be hard. Charlotte needs floor spacer so maybe we can package PPat and Ross to Charlotte and we take on Stephenson's contract for one year and get 9th pick. Just throwing ideas left and right

[Primer]

We need to go after the desperate teams like Sacremento, New York, and possibly Charlotte. Phil Jackson is trying to build a contender around Melo and will more give up his 4th pick and more for one of Lowry/DD. Kings also want to win now with DMC and Gay, so swaying them into moving their 6th pick AND Stauskas shouldn't be hard. Charlotte needs floor spacer so maybe we can package PPat and Ross to Charlotte and we take on Stephenson's contract for one year and get 9th pick. Just throwing ideas left and right

I think Ross and GV for Stephenson and the 9th would work. Charlotte needs a backup PG to replace Mo Williams, and I think PPat is too valuable as a stretch 4 to give away for the 9th pick. Charlotte also needs minutes for Vonleh, so adding a PF may not be as much a priority for them. Interesting trade idea I hadn't though of.