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  • #91
    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    WHo is arguing that?

    Jesus tonight.


    And guess what? The Cavs teams prior to this team building through the draft could only get to the NBA Finals once....and never won.

    2006 - 2nd round
    2007 - Finals (swept)
    2008 - 2nd round
    2009 - Conference Finals
    2010 - 2nd round

    Hello Miami!



    This team needs LeBron and LeBron needs the team.

    It is a frigging team game after all.....I understand most Raptor fans have been conditioned to forget that very important fact.
    Big talker.

    Should I break down my rationale?

    You say the cavaliers are built through the draft.

    What they built through the draft wasn't all that impressive.

    Far away the biggest move was a free agent signing.

    Therefore I contend the cavaliers are more accurately described as being built through free agent signings.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

    Comment


    • #92
      mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      And LeBron doesn't return without a chance to win. Period.

      They don't have a chance to win without adding young talent in the draft. Exclamation mark.

      They don't have a chance to round out the roster without the ever valuable trade chips know as draft picks. *face palm*
      So should we say the heat were built through the draft too?

      If they don't draft wade then bosh and lebron don't sign there.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

      Comment


      • #93
        stooley wrote: View Post
        Big talker.

        Should I break down my rationale?

        You say the cavaliers are built through the draft.

        What they built through the draft wasn't all that impressive.

        Far away the biggest move was a free agent signing.

        Therefore I contend the cavaliers are more accurately described as being built through free agent signings.
        You can contend whatever you want.

        Draft, trades, and free agency are all a part of building a team.

        The draft is what you build your foundation on. Free agency and trades come later.


        Who here is advocating ONLY the draft?

        Comment


        • #94
          stooley wrote: View Post
          So should we say the heat were built through the draft too?

          If they don't draft wade then bosh and lebron don't sign there.

          The foundation of the HEAT for the last 12 years was obtained through the draft.

          They don't win in 2006 without Wade.
          They don't go to 4 straight finals and win 2 without Wade.


          Take from that what you please.

          I would take from it your best place to get the foundation for your team is through the draft.

          Comment


          • #95
            mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
            And LeBron doesn't return without a chance to win. Period.

            They don't have a chance to win without adding young talent in the draft. Exclamation mark.

            They don't have a chance to round out the roster without the ever valuable trade chips know as draft picks. *face palm*
            Toronto with Lebron beats any team in the East and then we're talking about how the Raptors built through the draft with Derozan, Ross, JV, traded a high pick for Lowry and added a "unique free agent" signing to put them over the top.

            Cleveland is not an example that fits your preferred narrative. That you can't acknowledge the obvious is not surprising.

            Comment


            • #96
              You guys have very good points and I appreciate them.
              I still cannot shake off the idea that you cannot build anything sustainable with Casey behind the bench (and most importantly, you WILL NOT BUILD THE right culture and environment to develop players).
              I do think anything can be optimized with DC running things.


              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I totally agree with Lowry.

              As for DeRozan, I think there are 2 reasons why so many posters are hesitant to include him as part of their definitive core moving forward:

              1. Is he an inefficient chucker by nature, or is a victim of DC's unimaginative offense?

              2. What happens after next season, when he can opt-out of his contract? Leave for nothing? Sign a contract that takes him from being 'good value' to 'albatross'? Hometown discount?


              For me, #2 is looming as an even bigger reason for trading him than #1.

              Plus, if Lowry is traded, how does that impact DeRozan? Do his numbers suffer, resulting in his trade value plummeting (in combination with his looming opt-out already hurting trade value due to uncertainty and not being controlled by new team)? Does that increase the chances of him opting-out and leaving for nothing?

              Comment


              • #97
                slaw wrote: View Post
                Toronto with Lebron beats any team in the East and then we're talking about how the Raptors built through the draft with Derozan, Ross, JV, traded a high pick for Lowry and added a "unique free agent" signing to put them over the top.

                Cleveland is not an example that fits your preferred narrative. That you can't acknowledge the obvious is not surprising.
                Nah, Lebron never comes here, because that team doesn't stand a chance against the winner of the West.

                We should really all agree to stop using success in the East as if it's a benchmark for legitimate success.
                "Stop eating your sushi."
                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                - Jack Armstrong

                Comment


                • #98
                  slaw wrote: View Post
                  Toronto with Lebron beats any team in the East and then we're talking about how the Raptors built through the draft with Derozan, Ross, JV, traded a high pick for Lowry and added a "unique free agent" signing to put them over the top.

                  Cleveland is not an example that fits your preferred narrative. That you can't acknowledge the obvious is not surprising.
                  Lebron is from Cleveland area. He doesn't go there period except for that. That is the "unique".

                  The problem with the current raptors is the core isn't good enough and 2/3 is in its prime. There isn't any free agent coming to put them over the top. You've also admitted you don't really know much about the CBA and all it entails. Therefore you don't appreciate how extremely unlikely it is to get better with this core.

                  ....But that "unique" situation with a hometown star coming back....has a familiar sound.

                  You keep pushing your narrative of happy to play 86 games a year though.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    mcHAPPY, maybe you should tone down the self-righteousness given that YOU were the one preaching patience and continuity last offseason. I don't remember people slamming you for "loser talk" when you were advocating Masai's build-from-the-middle strategy.

                    As for a retool, which is what I expect Masai to do, I think it's possible to be effective but requires a shit-ton of luck. You need to have at least one piece which has an elite ceiling, like a Curry or a Paul George, and then you need to aggressively surround them with more talent. Those guys were not top 5 picks but grew into playing at a superstar level. I personally believe that Jonas could be a player like that, but not under our current coach or scheme.

                    The success of the Warriors, Spurs, and Hawks shows that the team take is becoming more and more effective in today's NBA. But they are all led by elite coaches. Which is why the retaining of Casey is such a downer. If we were serious about reorganizing our talent into those types of well-oiled machines we would need to start with the coaching.

                    The other part of a successful retool is maximizing value of assets. Golden State moving Ellis unlocked Curry's potential (while bringing in a DPOY-candidate center). Atlanta moving Joe Johnson helped Teague come into his own. Moving Enes Kanter unlocked Rudy Gobert and led to Utah having an elite defense the second half of the season.

                    So if we stay with Casey and both Lowry/DeRozan, I'll have to say this retool doesn't look as though it has much vision around it. And the continuity will actually just be inertia.

                    And if that's the plan I think it's pretty obvious that a tank is the preferred solution. But we can't really condemn the retool as a failure until we're sure that Masai doesn't have anything up his sleeve. I've been pro-tank ever since we hired Masai, in fact ever since we drafted Jonas, but I get why people don't want to throw in the towel. To them I would say that continuing to build on a faulty foundation is no way to build a house.

                    Comment


                    • I think the whole argument between Draft/FA/Trades is all kind of silly.

                      Find one contending team that exclusively used either? Not sure you really can.

                      In an age where you need to be able to attract FAs who want to play with other stars in winning environments you need a couple things: The cap to make it happen, talent to play alongside. For us I think we can achieve both of those in the draft. Or at least get on the right path.

                      In the case of the cavs, yea they sucked without lebron. But if that team didn't have Irving, Waiters, Wiggins and Bennett on the roster you think Lebron would have gone back? I don't. Lebron saw potential teammates and trade bait to bring in the players he wanted.

                      What would a player like Lebron see in Toronto? You couldn't create as competitive a situation as he did in cleveland. We didn't have the same assets. You don't have an Irving or a Wiggins on that squad. Sure we become competitive but we wouldn't be better than last years miami. We wouldn't be better than this years cleveland.

                      Comment


                      • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                        The foundation of the HEAT for the last 12 years was obtained through the draft.

                        They don't win in 2006 without Wade.
                        They don't go to 4 straight finals and win 2 without Wade.


                        Take from that what you please.

                        I would take from it your best place to get the foundation for your team is through the draft.
                        Add the Spurs into the argument you are trying to build. Built via draft picks.

                        Add the Wallace to Detroit. They traded their first round pick to Boston, and ATL's to get Milwaukees 1st. They gave up an asset that had a ton of value for a championship (reminder - in 2003 Detroit won everything)

                        Dallas has constantly been building around Nowitzki - Draft

                        For the yearly contenders:

                        OKC: Draft (KD+Westbrook)
                        Houston: Trading draft picks that they collected. (that's how they established their core)
                        Indiana: Draft
                        Memphis: Traded for the rights for a draft pick (Gasol), and drafted Conley. Trade for Randolph.
                        GS: Draft/Trades

                        Free agency is massively overrated, as you generally pay (pun intended) for it.

                        Drafting
                        Collecting Draft picks
                        Developing

                        Those 3 things simplify the building process of almost all the good teams (as always - the world isn't black and white)

                        distorsun wrote: View Post
                        You guys have very good points and I appreciate them.
                        I still cannot shake off the idea that you cannot build anything sustainable with Casey behind the bench (and most importantly, you WILL NOT BUILD THE right culture and environment to develop players).
                        I do think anything can be optimized with DC running things.
                        I think, for all intensive purposes, that everyone here agrees 100% that Casey is not a good coach, and that we don't need to mention it because it would be like beating a dead horse, or worse....pounding a rock

                        Comment


                        • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                          mcHAPPY, maybe you should tone down the self-righteousness given that YOU were the one preaching patience and continuity last offseason. I don't remember people slamming you for "loser talk" when you were advocating Masai's build-from-the-middle strategy.

                          As for a retool, which is what I expect Masai to do, I think it's possible to be effective but requires a shit-ton of luck. You need to have at least one piece which has an elite ceiling, like a Curry or a Paul George, and then you need to aggressively surround them with more talent. Those guys were not top 5 picks but grew into playing at a superstar level. I personally believe that Jonas could be a player like that, but not under our current coach or scheme.

                          The success of the Warriors, Spurs, and Hawks shows that the team take is becoming more and more effective in today's NBA. But they are all led by elite coaches. Which is why the retaining of Casey is such a downer. If we were serious about reorganizing our talent into those types of well-oiled machines we would need to start with the coaching.

                          The other part of a successful retool is maximizing value of assets. Golden State moving Ellis unlocked Curry's potential (while bringing in a DPOY-candidate center). Atlanta moving Joe Johnson helped Teague come into his own. Moving Enes Kanter unlocked Rudy Gobert and led to Utah having an elite defense the second half of the season.

                          So if we stay with Casey and both Lowry/DeRozan, I'll have to say this retool doesn't look as though it has much vision around it. And the continuity will actually just be inertia.

                          And if that's the plan I think it's pretty obvious that a tank is the preferred solution. But we can't really condemn the retool as a failure until we're sure that Masai doesn't have anything up his sleeve. I've been pro-tank ever since we hired Masai, in fact ever since we drafted Jonas, but I get why people don't want to throw in the towel. To them I would say that continuing to build on a faulty foundation is no way to build a house.
                          Ummmm, this started with slaw stating 'championship or bust' which is not what I said. I want to see a true contender built. A team that has a 4-5 year window at minimum to be a legit threat to win a championship each year. Half the league makes the palyoffs - it is nothing to be proud of this season.

                          And yes, I did preach patience and continuity last summer after being very much on the TANK. The cards all turned up aces in a short period of time. Masai had no choice but to give this core another chance. He did that and now we have resolution to Colangelo's core with a playoff ceiling. DeRozan never took the next step. Lowry regressed. JV continued to be jerked. The role players didn't follow up on career years. Ross regressed. The youth had a year wasted.

                          As for building with a George or Curry, they were still LOTTO picks. Those teams still were bad to be in position to draft those players.


                          As for everything else, I am pretty much in agreement. If Masai stands pat with this group, he will really be just another Colangelo. Come in with big talk only to be followed up with lip service.

                          Comment


                          • slaw wrote: View Post
                            No, I believe the process that is being advocated is itself wrong-headed. Not just the granular decisions. I'll leave it at this: being terrible to get high picks in the draft is not a plan. It's the antithesis of a plan. The success or failure of a billion dollar business should not be left to random chance and luck (see, 76ers, Philadelphia; Bobcats, Charlotte).

                            As for the Raptors, they have rebuilt. They have 3 top ten picks and a guy who was traded for another. They have a decent supporting cast and a group of players in their prime. You can't be starting over in perpetuity because you don't have a Lebron or Durant. At some point, you have to try and win. Does that mean a championship? Well, very unlikely with this team or any other team in the East outside of Cleveland for the next few seasons but it doesn't mean they can't compete with paper tigers like the Bulls, Wiz and Hawks.

                            Look, obviously, major changes are needed in Raptorland and that could take many forms. I have no opposition to trading anyone on this team is it makes this team better but I am definitely opposed to starting over with a view to 3 or 4 years now unless there is a guarantee of loftier heights because this is already an above average team.
                            Have always respected your comments and analysis, but is the being satisfied with an "above average' team (In the East mind you, they would be below average in the West) the way to go? There is no guarantee of loftier heights with roster changes and player turnover, but if your goal is to try and become a legit contender, backing a decent team with players that were inherited by the GM, is the passive way to go. I agree you can't start over every time you don't get Lebron or KD in the draft, but the players you have acquired via the draft (3 lottery picks you named Derozan, Ross and JV) better be good enough to mature together and compete at a high level.

                            I don't see that type of potential with this group and I hope Masai does decide to try and get in the lottery by trading one or two of these players, so he can draft and develop the type of player(s) he wants his team to have.

                            Comment


                            • The Hawks didn't really build through the draft. Horford was a lottery pick but most of their core wasn't one. And to parallel the Raptors.. JV could be Atlanta's "Horford" (but just younger and less injury prone - fingers crossed).

                              They got spanked by Lebron.. but he's a phenom. Could get a good 3&D Wing that can do his best Kwahi impersonation.. but even then Lebron did abuse Leonard in the finals last year.. he just had no help.

                              Anyway.. I'm totally on board with a full rebuild.. but because the Raptors are in the East they can get to that 3rd round battle without a star. I do think the core needs to be tweaked (I'd trade DD for a PF), sign a 3&D wing, and give Casey that pink slip as soon as possible. But a team like that is close to a 2nd or 3rd round exit.

                              For a championship.. they can hope for Bruno or 2015's #20 or the NY #1 pick to help them get to that next level.. or just coast until Wiggins becomes a UFA and/or Lebron retires.

                              Comment


                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                The Hawks didn't really build through the draft. Horford was a lottery pick but most of their core wasn't one. And to parallel the Raptors.. JV could be Atlanta's "Horford" (but just younger and less injury prone - fingers crossed).

                                They got spanked by Lebron.. but he's a phenom. Could get a good 3&D Wing that can do his best Kwahi impersonation.. but even then Lebron did abuse Leonard in the finals last year.. he just had no help.

                                Anyway.. I'm totally on board with a full rebuild.. but because the Raptors are in the East they can get to that 3rd round battle without a star. I do think the core needs to be tweaked (I'd trade DD for a PF), sign a 3&D wing, and give Casey that pink slip as soon as possible. But a team like that is close to a 2nd or 3rd round exit.

                                For a championship.. they can hope for Bruno or 2015's #20 or the NY #1 pick to help them get to that next level.. or just coast until Wiggins becomes a UFA and/or Lebron retires.
                                This year you can, but let's not forget about Orlando, Miami, Indiana, Washington, Milwaukee, Boston, and Philly...some of whom were injured, and some who are looking like they will have some long term success.

                                A full rebuild is going to be needed if we ever even hope to stay in the playoff race when those teams gain traction

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