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  • #76
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I totally agree with Lowry.

    As for DeRozan, I think there are 2 reasons why so many posters are hesitant to include him as part of their definitive core moving forward:

    1. Is he an inefficient chucker by nature, or is a victim of DC's unimaginative offense?

    2. What happens after next season, when he can opt-out of his contract? Leave for nothing? Sign a contract that takes him from being 'good value' to 'albatross'? Hometown discount?


    For me, #2 is looming as an even bigger reason for trading him than #1.

    Plus, if Lowry is traded, how does that impact DeRozan? Do his numbers suffer, resulting in his trade value plummeting (in combination with his looming opt-out already hurting trade value due to uncertainty and not being controlled by new team)? Does that increase the chances of him opting-out and leaving for nothing?
    All fair points.

    Here's my opinion. We can't keep trading players before they hit UFA status because we're scared....Would you play for a franchise that always trades away players before they hit free agency? This is a risk I believe we have to take.

    Like it or not, we built our offence around Demar. We invested a lot in him. We will never get back equal value in a trade. It's just dumb for teams to give up a lot for a possible one year rental of an "inefficient chucker."

    Here's an important note:

    If Demar leaves, he becomes the villain and we can start the rebuild/tanking process. I would be 100 percent behind it! We would likely bottom out and wouldn't get any flack from the fans or the rest of the league for it. Something similar to Lebron leaving Cleveland....Chris Bosh leaving Toronto.....If Lowry is traded and Demar leaves we would have no choice but to start from the bottom. For some fans, this would be a blessing in disguise wouldn't it? Sure, we would have one less draft pick, but wouldn't ours be higher as a result of the void in talent?

    Sometimes it's best to let things play out. If Demar stays for a reasonable contract, the positives (feeling that we can retain players) and the message it sends to the rest of the league (similar to Lowry re-signing) would greatly outweigh the negatives.

    Comment


    • #77
      special1 wrote: View Post
      All fair points.

      Here's my opinion. We can't keep trading players before they hit UFA status because we're scared....Would you play for a franchise that always trades away players before they hit free agency? This is a risk I believe we have to take.

      Like it or not, we built our offence around Demar. We invested a lot in him. We will never get back equal value in a trade. It's just dumb for teams to give up a lot for a possible one year rental of an "inefficient chucker."

      Here's an important note:

      If Demar leaves, he becomes the villain and we can start the rebuild/tanking process. I would be 100 percent behind it! We would likely bottom out and wouldn't get any flack from the fans or the rest of the league for it. Something similar to Lebron leaving Cleveland....Chris Bosh leaving Toronto.....If Lowry is traded and Demar leaves we would have no choice but to start from the bottom. For some fans, this would be a blessing in disguise wouldn't it? Sure, we would have one less draft pick, but wouldn't ours be higher as a result of the void in talent?

      Sometimes it's best to let things play out. If Demar stays for a reasonable contract, the positives (feeling that we can retain players) and the message it sends to the rest of the league (similar to Lowry re-signing) would greatly outweigh the negatives.
      I get what you're saying, but I suppose I disagree with a few things.

      First, I don't think it's fair to say that a team is simply dumping players before they hit UFA status. If the player (ie: DeRozan, Gay, Bosh, whoever) commits to the team (assuming the teams wants them to), then it all becomes a moot point. For all we know, Gay told MU that he would exercise his option and MU had no desire to pay him $19M a season, so he traded him. If MU asks DeRozan to confirm his intentions about the option and DeRozan is non-committal, suddenly it's no longer a stain on MU - and I think GMs/agents talk a lot behind the scenes to know what transpires.

      Second, at the end of the day, it's the GM's responsibility to manage his assets. Letting DeRozan walk for nothing would be a huge failure on MU's part. Not only would he lose a decent player, but he would lose a solid trade chip (unless of course he places a higher value on the additional cap space).

      Third, if DeRozan implies that he is going to opt-out and look elsewhere (or demand near-max money), then MU is between a rock and a hard place. If MU knows/thinks/believes/feels that he's going to have to rebuild after one more season, what's the point of waiting? Not only is he wasting a season, but he's also going to be starting his rebuild with one less asset (DeRozan) to trade, and potentially further devalued assets (ie: an older, more broken Lowry). It's also a lost season from the perspective that it could have been a season where whatever player(s) was acquired via a DeRozan trade would have been able to develop a chemistry with the rest of the Raptors roster. If MU is looking at a full rebuild, it also means adding another mid-range draft pick in 2016, instead of what could have been a lottery pick. You have to consider the domino effect of not trading DeRozan this offseason, especially in the scenario that he winds up leaving after next season anyway. Again, it doesn't make sense from a GM's perspective.
      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu May 28, 2015, 03:03 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        special1 wrote: View Post
        All fair points.

        Here's my opinion. We can't keep trading players before they hit UFA status because we're scared....
        Can you actually provide an example of when the Raptors traded away a player because of this?

        Can't exactly say "keep doing this" when we never have.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

        Comment


        • #79
          slaw wrote: View Post
          In the 16 years post-Jordan, 6 teams have won titles. 13 of them have been won by three teams. The Celtics put together a team with 3 hall of fame players in their primes and won exactly one title.

          Spare me the "championship or bust" nonsense.

          Who said championship or bust?

          Spare me the loser talk.

          Spare me the contentment with shitty basketball.

          Spare me the happy to play 86 games.


          You know what 3 teams winning 13 of those championships shows? The staying power of building a team right.

          The C's won 1 championship and were legit contenders for another 4 years.


          It is awesome timing to see Golden State rise and Cleveland as well. Both teams built through the draft and a shrewd trade put GS over the top while a unique FA signing put Cleveland back in business.
          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu May 28, 2015, 03:17 PM.

          Comment


          • #80
            mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
            Who said championship or bust?

            Spare me the loser talk.

            Spare me the contentment with shitty basketball.

            Spare me the happy to play 86 games.


            You know what 3 teams winning 13 of those championships shows? The staying power of building a team right.

            The C's won 1 championship and were legit contenders for another 4 years.


            It is awesome timing to see Golden State rise and Cleveland as well. Both teams built through the draft and a shrewd trade put GS over the top while a unique FA signing put Cleveland back in business.
            I wouldn't really say Cleveland built through the draft at all. Irving was a non factor in the 3rd round, this team is Lebron. Period.
            9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

            Comment


            • #81
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I completely agree and I wasn't suggesting there wasn't luck involved, or that rebuilding was risk free. Quite the opposite, actually. I just get frustrated when some people point to the more visible risks associated with rebuilding (pointing at extreme examples of mismanagement - ie: Philly's tanking failures), yet seem to infer that there are less/no risks associated with simply keeping the status quo. This thinking pertains not only to roster management, but also to the coaching debate.

              There is risk associated with every strategy, and every strategy is dependent on good management to be successful.
              But the path with less variables and less moving parts has got to be less risky.

              I think a lot of people underrate our current core.

              If we're somewhere between the first and second half of the season then we're a 49 win team that underperformed in the playoffs. With plenty of flexibility.

              At the very least the smart move is to wait for the deadline to be sure. We're gonna be waiting plenty of time anyways if we rebuild.

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Not the other way around.
              Last edited by stooley; Thu May 28, 2015, 03:57 PM.
              "Bruno?
              Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
              He's terrible."

              -Superjudge, 7/23

              Hope you're wrong.

              Comment


              • #82
                KeonClark wrote: View Post
                I wouldn't really say Cleveland built through the draft at all. Irving was a non factor in the 3rd round, this team is Lebron. Period.
                Thompson
                Irving
                Waiters became JR Smith, Shumpert, and a first round pick*
                *that first round pick and another was traded for their starting C


                2 starters were drafted in last 4 years
                1 starter was acquired by trading a drafted player
                1 starter was acquired by trading 2 future draft picks
                6th man was acquired by trading a drafted piayer


                The core of this team, outside LBJ, was acquired directly or indirectly though past or future drafts.


                Cleveland is actually a great example of still having success despite messing up. Imagine they had picked Drummond over Waiters. Good Lord. Then you have the Luol Deng fiasco that blew up in their face. Love is likely going to blow up in their face. But the reason they can keep making these mistakes is because of the treasure chest of DRAFT PICKS they acquired over the previous 4 seasons.

                Comment


                • #83
                  mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                  Thompson
                  Irving
                  Waiters became JR Smith, Shumpert, and a first round pick*
                  *that first round pick and another was traded for their starting C


                  2 starters were drafted in last 4 years
                  1 starter was acquired by trading a drafted player
                  1 starter was acquired by trading 2 future draft picks
                  6th man was acquired by trading a drafted piayer


                  The core of this team, outside LBJ, was acquired directly or indirectly though past or future drafts.


                  Cleveland is actually a great example of still having success despite messing up. Imagine they had picked Drummond over Waiters. Good Lord. Then you have the Luol Deng fiasco that blew up in their face. Love is likely going to blow up in their face. But the reason they can keep making these mistakes is because of the treasure chest of DRAFT PICKS they acquired over the previous 4 seasons.
                  That team sucks without lebron though
                  "Bruno?
                  Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                  He's terrible."

                  -Superjudge, 7/23

                  Hope you're wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                    Thompson
                    Irving
                    Waiters became JR Smith, Shumpert, and a first round pick*
                    *that first round pick and another was traded for their starting C


                    2 starters were drafted in last 4 years
                    1 starter was acquired by trading a drafted player
                    1 starter was acquired by trading 2 future draft picks
                    6th man was acquired by trading a drafted piayer


                    The core of this team, outside LBJ, was acquired directly or indirectly though past or future drafts.


                    Cleveland is actually a great example of still having success despite messing up. Imagine they had picked Drummond over Waiters. Good Lord. Then you have the Luol Deng fiasco that blew up in their face. Love is likely going to blow up in their face. But the reason they can keep making these mistakes is because of the treasure chest of DRAFT PICKS they acquired over the previous 4 seasons.
                    I consider trading a draft pick giving credit to the TRADE area of building, not the DRAFT. So Thompson and Irving. Not really unique, almost every team in the league has at least 2 home grown players in the starting lineup.
                    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                      Who said championship or bust?

                      Spare me the loser talk.

                      Spare me the contentment with shitty basketball.

                      Spare me the happy to play 86 games.


                      You know what 3 teams winning 13 of those championships shows? The staying power of building a team right.

                      The C's won 1 championship and were legit contenders for another 4 years.


                      It is awesome timing to see Golden State rise and Cleveland as well. Both teams built through the draft and a shrewd trade put GS over the top while a unique FA signing put Cleveland back in business.
                      I am not a loser. So go pound sand on that one.

                      I love the Raptors. I have watched the Raptors for 20 years. This year was not shitty basketball. The 90s were shitty basketball. Have some perspective.

                      I'm happy to watch my team. Happy to play 86 games? I'd rather play 110 but that I'll take 86 over praying for magic beans.

                      The three teams who won those championships had/have 4 of the greatest players ever to play the game. Take Kobe/Shaq (who both forced their way to LA by the way, not sure how that is building a team right), Lebron or Duncan off those teams and they are also rans.

                      Take nothing away from GSW, they've done a terrific job the last few seasons, but it has been one of the worst franchises in the NBA for 40 years, so, again, perspective. A "unique FA signing put Cleveland back in business". Give me a break. It's Lebron. He's been to five finals in a row. Unique FA signing. Come on with that....

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        stooley wrote: View Post
                        That team sucks without lebron though
                        WHo is arguing that?

                        Jesus tonight.


                        And guess what? The Cavs teams prior to this team building through the draft could only get to the NBA Finals once....and never won.

                        2006 - 2nd round
                        2007 - Finals (swept)
                        2008 - 2nd round
                        2009 - Conference Finals
                        2010 - 2nd round

                        Hello Miami!



                        This team needs LeBron and LeBron needs the team.

                        It is a frigging team game after all.....I understand most Raptor fans have been conditioned to forget that very important fact.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Tricky.
                          1. Let's get on thing out of the way. Tanking is an option BUT doesn't guaranteed success.
                          Now let's look at the raps, Where are they now ? = Right on the treadmill.
                          Now the big question is HOW TO YOU STRENGTH your foundation while minimizing the costs (losing)?

                          FA is a part of it. Yes we're not LA, but we can get decent 2tier FA for 2tier. As a small market, you have to gamble a bit (W. Matthews).

                          2. Draft, which bring us to back to point No 1; YOU MUST draft well, but MOST importantly, you MUST ABSOLUTELY develop well (and this is where our LOSER CULTURE and poor mgmt have failed to turn decent draft pick into average NBA players too often). We can still feel the pain (Bargnani...REALLY?)

                          3. That being said, it's going to require some GM gymnastics to avoid the inevitable (wrecking ball). It is possible to "retool"; but that might just got us past the 1st round. We are on the verge of becoming Joe Johnson's hawks.

                          Personally, I would look for undervalued players or players which their teams cannot keep because of cap situations (Harisson Barnes?); or even try to see if Philly have guys they don't want in the mix anymore.
                          Rookies playing behind 2 or 3 NBA vets (KJ McDaniels). Those are the type of calculated risk that might got us the treadmill fast enough without suffering some SERIOUS LOSING. But I don't know if that is MUs plan.
                          We'll see.

                          By the way, Klow will not be return to his all star level. If he's commited, he will drop a good 15-20 lbs (haven't heard anything so far??)



                          mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                          How do you add the pieces?

                          Draft? At 20? That is more than luck.

                          Free agency? But I thought toronto was an awful place for free agents?

                          Trade? What are you sending out? How do you then replace what you've sent out?


                          Not to mention what happens if Lowry never returns to his two 1/2 seasons form and is then on the ring side of 30? What happens if DeRozan leaves for nothing or, possibly worse, ends up staying in a max deal?


                          This core is the hangover of Colangelo. Everything you said about it is correct except this team was primarily put together to make the playoffs - nothing more. It has been there twice and bounced first round.

                          It is time to go back to the drawing board and this time lay off the accelerator until a legitimate contender core is in place.
                          Last edited by distorsun; Thu May 28, 2015, 03:57 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            But the reason they can keep making these mistakes is because of the treasure chest of DRAFT PICKS they acquired over the previous 4 seasons
                            The reason they can keep making these mistakes and still be good is because of Lebron. Period. That treasure chest of draft picks won 19, 21, 24 and 33 games in the 4 years Lebron wasn't there. You're intentionally ignoring the elephant in the room cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              distorsun wrote: View Post
                              Tricky.
                              1. Let's get on thing out of the way. Tanking is an option BUT doesn't guaranteed success.
                              Now let's look at the raps, Where are they now ? = Right on the treadmill.
                              Now the big question is HOW TO YOU STRENGTH your foundation while minimizing the costs (losing)?

                              FA is a part of it. Yes we're not LA, but we can get decent 2tier FA for 2tier. As a small market, you have to gamble a bit (W. Matthews).

                              2. Draft, which bring us to back to point No 1; YOU MUST draft well, but MOST importantly, you MUST ABSOLUTELY develop well (and this is where our LOSER CULTURE and poor mgmt have failed to turn decent draft pick into average NBA players too often). We can still feel the pain (Bargnani...REALLY?)

                              3. That being said, it's going to require some GM gymnastics to avoid the inevitable (wrecking ball). It is possible to "retool"; but that might just got us past the 1st round. We are on the verge of becoming Joe Johnson's hawks.

                              Personally, I would look for undervalued players or players which their teams cannot keep because of cap situations.
                              Rookies playing behind 2 or 3 NBA vets. Those are the type of calculated risk that might got us the treadmill fast enough without suffering some SERIOUS LOSING. But I don't know if that is MUs plan.
                              We'll see.

                              By the way, Klow will not be return to his all star level. If he's commited, he will drop a good 15-20 lbs (haven't heard anything so far??)

                              Every team is looking for good players like Matthews. Contenders get him on reasonable contracts because guys like him want to win. A team like Toronto has to overpay which only adds to the number of people running on the treadmill. The more people running on the treadmill, the nastier the fall.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                slaw wrote: View Post
                                The reason they can keep making these mistakes and still be good is because of Lebron. Period. That treasure chest of draft picks won 19, 21, 24 and 33 games in the 4 years Lebron wasn't there. You're intentionally ignoring the elephant in the room cause it doesn't fit your narrative.
                                And LeBron doesn't return without a chance to win. Period.

                                They don't have a chance to win without adding young talent in the draft. Exclamation mark.

                                They don't have a chance to round out the roster without the ever valuable trade chips know as draft picks. *face palm*
                                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu May 28, 2015, 04:00 PM.

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