Why????

[KeonClark]

Deep.

Haha at least he's covering all his bases with vague predictions now, isn't that the same guy who was living and dying by his "Cavs will finish 8th" proclamation all seasaon?

[Axel]

I don't agree that JV will never be a superstar... I agree that he probably won't be a superstar.

Deep.

[thead]

I don't agree that JV will never be a superstar... I agree that he probably won't be a superstar.

[IwishIwasZachLowe]

What exactly though is a winning environment? If the Raptors make the 2nd round is that enough? Would a free agent hitch their wagon to a team that's ceiling is the 2nd or 3rd round to help them win a championship? Atlanta makes the playoffs every year, but they don't seem to be attracting free agents either.

I think the ultimate reason why a top tier free agent (and I'm talking about top 10 in the league) would switch teams is so they can play with another top 10 player in the league. Happened with Lebron, Bosh, Love and Howard. CP3 was traded but stayed with LAC because of Griffin who was becoming a top 10 player in the league. Nash (not a top 10 player but was still considered a premium free agent) said no to his home country to play with Kobe.

So I don't think its as simple as building a winning culture. That might help retain home grown free agents but I don't think it will help attract top tier free agents.

Raptors need their top dog first.. then they can starting building a winning culture around that guy.. then they can try to attract free agents.

AND the only way to do this is through the draft, hence trading our assets for picks for this and next year's draft.

[planetmars]

No they can.

How? build a winning environemnt, build a winning culture.

The Raptors are one of the worst franchise in sports, long history of losing. 20 years of futility. When Americans or non-Raps fans think of the Raptors they think of Canada(obviously) and snow and Vince Carter. That's just how it is. And that needs to change.

How do you do that? you win. You build a winning culture. Like i said before, forget about championships, with this franchise they need to build a winning environment FIRST. I think its very crucial. You do that, free agents will come, your luck will turn around, then you can start talking championships.

The Raps actually are in a great spot right now. They have a lot of momentum right now with the back to back division title, 48 and 49 win season and the "We The North" crap. All star game next year. If they decide to all of a sudden blow this thing up(which i don't think will happen) and tank or rebuild. Oh boy......

What exactly though is a winning environment? If the Raptors make the 2nd round is that enough? Would a free agent hitch their wagon to a team that's ceiling is the 2nd or 3rd round to help them win a championship? Atlanta makes the playoffs every year, but they don't seem to be attracting free agents either.

I think the ultimate reason why a top tier free agent (and I'm talking about top 10 in the league) would switch teams is so they can play with another top 10 player in the league. Happened with Lebron, Bosh, Love and Howard. CP3 was traded but stayed with LAC because of Griffin who was becoming a top 10 player in the league. Nash (not a top 10 player but was still considered a premium free agent) said no to his home country to play with Kobe.

So I don't think its as simple as building a winning culture. That might help retain home grown free agents but I don't think it will help attract top tier free agents.

Raptors need their top dog first.. then they can starting building a winning culture around that guy.. then they can try to attract free agents.

[Just Is]

Haha, it was fine. Everybody is getting so damn irritable around here, it's finally descended into "you're not a real fan if you don't agree with my point of view" territory. I swear retaining Casey ruined most people's summer (from a Raps news point of view).

That's where I'm personally directing all my hate. It really does help your summer to have a focus.

[Bonus Jonas]

1. It seems you misunderstand the meaning of hostile.

2. But you still didn't say much in your post. How do we get this superstar?? Who should stay and who should go in your opinion?

3. Seems like we're going in circles here. Read my post. From the beginning I noted that I never mentioned "the core." You did! Therefore, I responded to that - saying that the players you consider part of your core differs from who I perceive to be good pieces to move forward with. If you think "the core" means superstar players, you're off your rockers.

4. You brought up the core, not me. I stated early in our discussion that looking at it as "the core" is silly. Look at it as pieces to a championship puzzle.

5. What kind of assumption is that?? Do you see why thinking of it as "the core" doesn't really work? "The core" is subjective. A good GM should always be trying to add better players to the team. Dude, you brought up the core as if it's some rigid object that can't be improved or altered. Nice try.

6. What exactly are you saying? You want this all done in one move or something? The trade or signing for a superstar may be in 2-4 years from now for all we know.... It may be longer (wiggins may become one) - he may want to come home. Is that possibility that much longer than a true tank would take?

I take back calling you a psychic.....All you know is that we won't win a championship without a superstar. You offer no opinion on how we can get this superstar. I assumed you meant tanking and you didn't even own up to it. You're more concerned with impressing your friends McHappy and Axel.


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Yeah I'm done with this argument since you didn't comprehend a single thing I said in my last post and I can't put it in simpler terms.

Also, I meant to say not being hostile.

[S.R.]

Guys I tried my absolute best at channeling my inner mcHappy, but I keep getting this hunch that I wasn't sarcastic or condescending enough to live up to his shoes lol.

Haha, it was fine. Everybody is getting so damn irritable around here, it's finally descended into "you're not a real fan if you don't agree with my point of view" territory. I swear retaining Casey ruined most people's summer (from a Raps news point of view).

[IwishIwasZachLowe]

Give jv a chance, but have a back up plan

Trade Ross and a 2nd round pick to the Charlotte Bobcats 1st overall pick. Charlotte was dead last in the East last year in 3 pt % and the impatient MJ wants to win now. Draft Willie Cauley Stein, a young athletic rim protector the Raptors desperately need with a high IQ. Would form a great Centre tandem with Valenciunas and could one day even take his job.

Because JV is a "young" player with a lot of "potential"

Raptors fans loves "potential" and "young players" and "draft picks" they all think of their young players/draft picks as future stars or all stars.

Once they realized that JV is no star, and he is no star, you can quote me on that(he's an NBA starter but not a star). They're going to turn on him real quick. Just like how they turned on Bargnani and now Ross.

I was right about Bargnani, i was right about Graham, i was definitely right about Ross(right guys?!) and i'm pretty confident about this one.

I'm going to give it 2 years.

[special1]

One of the reasons it's been such a shit show lately is people quoting and attacking people on things they never said.

You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with your post is fundamentally against you in every aspect.

Stick to the facts in the post and you'll be better served.

I trust you will do the same? They should just make you a mod....Unfortunately, I can't tell if you are.....due to tapatalk.


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[special1]

Why????

Seeing as you're being hostile I'll respond, but you misread my post.

1. I said the consensus would probably be Lowry, DD, JV and maybe PPat. That's not my core.
2. Yes you can win with the guys I mentioned but I clearly stated you need superstar talent and you won't get it without dealing some of these guys.
3. Also, just because you can win with them on the team, doesn't mean you can win with them as the core, which you can't. Again, you need a superstar which means it's bo longer the same core.
4. I said multiple times it doesn't matter what your core is. So not sure how you think I assumed your core.
5. I assumed we wouldn't add better players because then it's a different core which contradicts my original post, which is that you can win with our current core being our core.

6. Finally, I said core because your train of thought is to keep dd, JV and pp and trade lowry, and address the missing pieces through free agency I'm guessing? I'm saying that's not gonna get us a superstar and we still won't be a championship team.

1. It seems you misunderstand the meaning of hostile.

2. But you still didn't say much in your post. How do we get this superstar?? Who should stay and who should go in your opinion?

3. Seems like we're going in circles here. Read my post. From the beginning I noted that I never mentioned "the core." You did! Therefore, I responded to that - saying that the players you consider part of your core differs from who I perceive to be good pieces to move forward with. If you think "the core" means superstar players, you're off your rockers.

4. You brought up the core, not me. I stated early in our discussion that looking at it as "the core" is silly. Look at it as pieces to a championship puzzle.

5. What kind of assumption is that?? Do you see why thinking of it as "the core" doesn't really work? "The core" is subjective. A good GM should always be trying to add better players to the team. Dude, you brought up the core as if it's some rigid object that can't be improved or altered. Nice try.

6. What exactly are you saying? You want this all done in one move or something? The trade or signing for a superstar may be in 2-4 years from now for all we know.... It may be longer (wiggins may become one) - he may want to come home. Is that possibility that much longer than a true tank would take?

I take back calling you a psychic.....All you know is that we won't win a championship without a superstar. You offer no opinion on how we can get this superstar. I assumed you meant tanking and you didn't even own up to it. You're more concerned with impressing your friends McHappy and Axel.


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[Axel]

I apologize for assuming that you were one of the many fans advocating tanking. I would need to go through the threads for proof of it. Maybe you can clarify your stance in your response.

One of the reasons it's been such a shit show lately is people quoting and attacking people on things they never said.

You can't just assume that anyone who disagrees with your post is fundamentally against you in every aspect.

Stick to the facts in the post and you'll be better served.

[Axel]

Guys I tried my absolute best at channeling my inner mcHappy, but I keep getting this hunch that I wasn't sarcastic or condescending enough to live up to his shoes lol.

Solid post nonetheless.

[Bonus Jonas]

Seeing as you're being hostile I'll respond, but you misread my post.

1. I said the consensus would probably be Lowry, DD, JV and maybe PPat. That's not my core.
2. Yes you can win with the guys I mentioned but I clearly stated you need superstar talent and you won't get it without dealing some of these guys.
3. Also, just because you can win with them on the team, doesn't mean you can win with them as the core, which you can't. Again, you need a superstar which means it's bo longer the same core.
4. I said multiple times it doesn't matter what your core is. So not sure how you think I assumed your core.
5. I assumed we wouldn't add better players because then it's a different core which contradicts my original post, which is that you can win with our current core being our core.

6. Finally, I said core because your train of thought is to keep dd, JV and pp and trade lowry, and address the missing pieces through free agency I'm guessing? I'm saying that's not gonna get us a superstar and we still won't be a championship team.

[special1]

Why????

Speak for yourself. This core isn't having any chance at a championship any time soon

Okay, first of all, pick whoever you'd like as your core. Unless there is a huge talent influx in which our core would obviously be changing (as you're adding talent and the new talent is now added to your core), I guarantee you that whatever you chose as your core cannot become a championship team just from adding role players.
(Example: In my opinion the consensus for our core would be Lowry, Demar, JV and possibly PPat. Again, in my opinion, no matter which role players you add to this core, those three (maybe four) players will not be good enough to lead us to a championship. You would have to have someone else come in and add to that core that is more talented.)



Exactly, the core can change at any time, but what I stated was that unless it changes, it's not going to win you any championships.

I said you won't win with this core. I think JV is 100% capable of being the starting center of a championship team. If Lowry plays like he did in the beginning of the year, same thing goes for him as a starting PG. Ditto for DeRozan if he can learn to control his shot selection, and play more like the player at the end of this season and less like the one at the beginning. PPat and JJ look to me to be guys that would be perfect off the bench as role players on a championship team.

But with that being said, I'd hope you would agree that you will not win a championship with any of those guys as your best player, maybe even your second best player. This means you need a huge talent influx into the core, thus creating a new core, featuring your new players as the main guys. Unfortunately with the position the Raptors are in, unless Masai is a god and can land a Durant level player in free agency next season, when EVERY team will have boatloads of cap space and players are gonna control their manifest destiny more than they ever have, or that he can somehow get a player of that level in the draft at the #20th overall pick range, or that Bruno (or anyone else on our roster for that matter) will become that player, we absolutely need to part with some of our assets in order to get one of those players. Whether that means trading Lowry, or Demar, or JV, or the knicks pick, or any of those for that matter, you need to do what you can to get superstar level talent on this team.

Guys I tried my absolute best at channeling my inner mcHappy, but I keep getting this hunch that I wasn't sarcastic or condescending enough to live up to his shoes lol.

It seems that we agree on some things.
I only see DD and JV as part of the core moving forward (my opinion). Although, I wouldn't mind adding PPat to the core.

Its interesting that you concede that Lowry, Ppat, Demar and JV can be part of a championship team. You acknowledge that you think they're the core of this team. This contradicts your post where you said we can't win one with this core (your core).

I've always stated that we should surround our core player(s) with better talent. People disagree on how we can get better talent. I apologize for assuming that you were one of the many fans advocating tanking. I would need to go through the threads for proof of it. Maybe you can clarify your stance in your response.

My point was that we do have some good pieces. You assumed my core was your core and that's probably where you went wrong. We do need to add better players....(isn't that obvious)??

We can get some good pieces for Lowry. Teams such as Houston, New York and Sacramento may be interested. We can also get a good player in free agency. Without knowing who's coming back and who we can add, how can you make the statement that you made? Why did you assume that we would not add better players?

We lack a starting PF and a starting SF. We lack a coach with a proper offensive system. The defensive system has been a disaster for this team as well (although we don't have much in terms of great defensive players - Maybe JJ and a healthy Amir?).

Is it fair to judge "the core" knowing this??

I appreciate your response, but you contradicted yourself when you listed the players (in your perceived core) from this team that you can see on a championship team. If your point was - if we kept the exact same players in your core and did not improve the talent, we we'll never win a championship....I'd agree with you.

I absolutely believe that we can add talent (without tanking) to the few players we have in "the core." It takes a shrewd GM to make this happen. It's not gonna happen right away, but it can be done gradually.

I guess I forgot to put (in my opinion) after the statement where I said "Most Raptors fans want to watch a competitive TEAM (not the core or your core) grow and IMPROVE until we have the chance at a championship in the near future. You see? You made the assumption I was talking about "the core" or your core. That's where you went wrong.

Also, your post was the nice, non-sarcastic, non-condescending version of McHappy.









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