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Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

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  • Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

    They both play for the Raptors last I checked?

    I've noticed a growing narrative that you either have to pick one or the other, and I don't understand it. They don't play the same position or even occupy the same space on the court. Neither of them interferes with the ability of the other to be a member of the team.

    So why is it that so many of the DeRozan stans think so poorly of JV (Can't be trusted in the 4th, doesn't defend well, has no potential to be great, etc), and at the same time so many of the JV stans think poorly of DeRozan (chucker, selfish, needs to be traded).

    They're 25 and 23, both players with all-star talent and can be a part of the core going forwards. Both are due for paydays in 2016 free agency. I just don't really get the divide on something that shouldn't be divisive at all.

    You don't have to hate one player on the team to like another. I kind of understood with the Ross/DeRozan thing at first because they are both shooting guards, but this doesn't even make sense.

  • #2
    highlander

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    • #3
      Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

      Without getting into the social aspects that largely drive the divide, I believe it simply comes down to the belief in the value of advanced stats.

      Advanced stats portray JV as an under utilized offensive weapon who can be very efficient. Those same stats show Demar to be an inefficient high volume shooter.

      If you don't believe in advanced stats, then JV doesn't produce much per game and Demar does.

      Obviously this is an oversimplification of a diverse and dynamic group of posters here at RR, but the divide you speak of starts here. Throw in years of repetitiveness and rude remarks, and you get a pretty strong group in either camp with a bevy in between.

      Personally, advanced stats aren't like ghosts, UFOs or big foot; it's not something you choose to believe as real or not, but rather as more pieces to the puzzle. All stats are simply math, some are just easier to understand than others. All work together to show what happened.
      Last edited by Axel; Sun May 31, 2015, 10:19 AM.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • #4
        Axel wrote: View Post

        Obviously this is an oversimplification of a diverse and dynamic group of posters here at RR, but the divide you speak of starts here. Throw in years of repetitiveness and rude remarks, and you get a pretty strong group in either camp with a bevy in between.
        haha

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        • #5
          JWash wrote: View Post
          They both play for the Raptors last I checked?

          I've noticed a growing narrative that you either have to pick one or the other, and I don't understand it. They don't play the same position or even occupy the same space on the court. Neither of them interferes with the ability of the other to be a member of the team.

          So why is it that so many of the DeRozan stans think so poorly of JV (Can't be trusted in the 4th, doesn't defend well, has no potential to be great, etc), and at the same time so many of the JV stans think poorly of DeRozan (chucker, selfish, needs to be traded).

          They're 25 and 23, both players with all-star talent and can be a part of the core going forwards. Both are due for paydays in 2016 free agency. I just don't really get the divide on something that shouldn't be divisive at all.

          You don't have to hate one player on the team to like another. I kind of understood with the Ross/DeRozan thing at first because they are both shooting guards, but this doesn't even make sense.
          what the fuck is a stan?

          Anyway the reason people seem to like either one or the other is really just a reflection of people's opinion/understanding of advanced metrics in basketball. People who "don't believe" in analytics don't think JV is that good because his raw numbers aren't spectacular, people who understand math and statistics see significant potential. By the same token people who look at the raw numbers see that Derozan scores 20 a game and don't look any further than that before anointing him some kind of star (somehow forgetting that mike fucking james scored 20/game for us), while people who look at more than PPG see the glaring problems of a shooting guard who just cannot shoot yet continues to do so.

          I put "don't believe" in quotation marks because, like Axel said, these things aren't something you have to have faith in. It's just mathematics and statistics that are demonstrably better than raw numbers at predicting performance. I don't really understand the "anti-analytics" crowd, although i liken it to highschool where it was somehow "cool" to hate math.

          I think my own opinions have been fairly clear on this forum regarding JV/Demar so I wont' say anything else.

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          • #6
            Axel wrote: View Post
            Without getting into the social aspects that largely drive the divide, I believe it simply comes down to the belief in the value of advanced stats.

            Advanced stats portray JV as an under utilized offensive weapon who can be very efficient. Those same stats show Demar to be an inefficient high volume shooter.

            If you don't believe in advanced stats, then JV doesn't produce much per game and Demar does.

            Obviously this is an oversimplification of a diverse and dynamic group of posters here at RR, but the divide you speak of starts here. Throw in years of repetitiveness and rude remarks, and you get a pretty strong group in either camp with a bevy in between.

            Personally, advanced stats are like ghosts, UFOs or big foot; it's not something you choose to believe as real or not, but rather as more pieces to the puzzle. All stats are simply math, some are just easier to understand than others. All work together to show what happened.
            I don't think advanced stats cause a divide... I think stats become a victim of it though.

            I think the cause of the divide is much more simple though. Since all players effect their teammates (in some fashion, to differing levels)... if we can blame X, then Y must be better than they appear (both statistically or by the eye test)

            A much simpler (and old) example:

            "Bosh is stealing Bargnani's rebounds"

            If this is true... then what we see, both statistically and otherwise, is being influenced by an external factor. (ie. Bargnani looks like a bad rebounder because Bosh is taking them. If Bosh stops taking them, Bargnani won't be bad.)

            So why do fans of a certain player seem to tend to blame another? Because it offers a scapegoat, an excuse... a distraction.

            (That said, since players do effect one another, on multiple levels, there can be merit... although its not always what it appears to be. ie. Bargnani's rebounding has been consistently terrible, but Bosh's best years were when he played the most minutes with Bargnani. So was Bosh stealing Bargnani's rebounds... or was Bargnani such a terrible rebounder it made Bosh look better than he was?)

            Off Topic:

            advanced stats are like ghosts, UFOs or big foot; it's not something you choose to believe as real or not, but rather as more pieces to the puzzle
            I don't mean to nit pick your analogy but.... ghosts etc are something you need to believe in as real or not. They either exist or they don't.

            Stats, at least as we use them to rank/rate/compare aren't like this at all. They are probabilities of a future event taking place, based on past events. One can argue the accuracy of the probabilities... but probabilities (at least dynamic ones... which basketball stats are) will be in flux over time.

            So to simplify them numerically. Ghosts, big foot etc are 0% or 100% chance of existence. Stats are 0% to 100% of existing (accurately anyways).

            But stats shouldn't be viewed as either real or not. That interpretation of stats is what would cause a divide that shouldn't exist. They should be viewed on their merits, and should be argued (for or against) based on their rate of change going forward.

            edit: I may or may not have misinterpreted the analogy, but I'll leave this here either way.
            Last edited by GarbageTime; Sun May 31, 2015, 11:12 AM.

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            • #7
              GarbageTime wrote: View Post

              I don't mean to nit pick your analogy but.... ghosts etc are something you need to believe in as real or not. They either exist or they don't.

              Stats, at least as we use them to rank/rate/compare aren't like this at all. They are probabilities of a future event taking place, based on past events. One can argue the accuracy of the probabilities... but probabilities (at least dynamic ones... which basketball stats are) will be in flux over time.

              So to simplify them numerically. Ghosts, big foot etc are 0% or 100% chance of existence. Stats are 0% to 100% of existing (accurately anyways).

              But stats shouldn't be viewed as either real or not. That interpretation of stats is what would cause a divide that shouldn't exist. They should be viewed on their merits, and should be argued (for or against) based on their rate of change going forward.

              edit: I may or may not have misinterpreted the analogy, but I'll leave this here either way.
              You missed the edit correcting the autocorrect error.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #8
                Axel wrote: View Post
                You missed the edit correcting the autocorrect error.
                gotcha

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                • #9
                  Style of play and values on what is important in the game of basketball.


                  (Really good question though!)


                  *DD is 26 in August, JV just turned 23. DOB '89 vs '92

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                  • #10
                    I like both, but I really hate fadeaway mid-range jumpers fyi

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                    • #11
                      That is a great question. I think more balanced and logical posters realize that DD is a young talent with amazing work ethics and love for the team and the city, who is stuck in an ISO ball system under Casey.
                      These fans would like to see him and assess him under a different style of play where ball moves and along a pass first PG.

                      Same group of fans also believe that J.V. is not as mechanical, hesitant and slow as he looked this year under Casey. They also believe that under right coaching, J.V. can develop a more fluid game and make better decision in offence and defence.

                      All that being said, the major problem is that the coach has been kept by MU. Now, the question is will we see a new brand of Basketball or even can KL be a pass first PG who does not stop the ball movement and force and ISO ball.

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                      • #12
                        rocwell wrote: View Post
                        I like both, but I really hate fadeaway mid-range jumpers fyi
                        Hmm. You hate fadeaway and mid range jumpers? so you hate this guy too? i'm guessing the answer is no. So instead of saying you hate fadeaway and mid range jumpers just tell it like it is, you hate DeRozan. It's ok lol #RealTalk

                        Mamba Mentality

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                        • #13
                          Btw, i'm not comparing DeRozan to Jordan so don't twist my words. The fact is, a lot of great players in the past and present ha the fadeaway and mid range j's in their arsenal. Jordan obviously is one, Kobe, Harde, Wade, Nowitzki etc..

                          Saying you hate fadeaway and mid range jumpers is ridiculous. It's not a bad shot, if you perfected it.
                          Mamba Mentality

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                          • #14
                            omg.

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                            • #15
                              McRealistic wrote: View Post
                              That is a great question. I think more balanced and logical posters realize that DD is a young talent with amazing work ethics and love for the team and the city, who is stuck in an ISO ball system under Casey.
                              These fans would like to see him and assess him under a different style of play where ball moves and along a pass first PG.

                              Same group of fans also believe that J.V. is not as mechanical, hesitant and slow as he looked this year under Casey. They also believe that under right coaching, J.V. can develop a more fluid game and make better decision in offence and defence.

                              All that being said, the major problem is that the coach has been kept by MU. Now, the question is will we see a new brand of Basketball or even can KL be a pass first PG who does not stop the ball movement and force and ISO ball.
                              DeMar has said on several occasions he idolizes Kobe. He takes the same types of off balance ridiculous contested shots that Kobe does except Kobe can hit them. DeMar also said he prefers to take contested shots over wide open shots. Well he can't hit contested shots and actually shoots a bit better on uncontested shots.

                              Point is, it's the style of play DeMar likes that is the issue. That's tough to change especially when that's the style he's learned in the nba. Just look at the coaches he had during his developmental years we ruined DeMar. It's amazing he's turned out to be as good as he is and it's a testament to his work ethic. But, he has to go.
                              Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
                              Because its 2015

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