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Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

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  • #31
    blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    This needs to be stickied at the front of sooooo many threads. Seriously, who "fits" the Raptors? Does the team even have an ideology? Do the Raptors actually have more than 3 players (Lowry, DD, JV)? How can one decide who is the better fit, when the organization can not show us what direction they want to go?

    I like both JV and DD. I wish they used both in ways that more correctly gave them opportunities to succeed. Demar is best coming off screens, or drive and kick sets. JV is most comfortable off pick and roll. CASEY allows the majority of plays to be isolation. Only 2 players on the Raps fit iso -- Lou and Lowry. So why is it being run so -- sorry about the tangent. I understand why they didn't fire Casey, but seriously, how can we truly judge players who are coached so poorly?

    I think both are discredited for their defense. Demar seems to be the most consistent perimeter defender (which is sad), and JV is often blamed for mistakes that the perimeter defenders make. Anyway, I think you can like both and still recognize the flaws in their games. It doesn't have to be an either or scenario.
    Now this is one of the best posts I read in RR forum.

    I wish I could like it 2 times and repost it under the everything dear thread, everything JV thread and Fire Casey thread.

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    • #32
      JWash wrote: View Post
      Ok dude, congratulations. Really hope this place isn't going to be like RealGM with a bunch of "know-it-alls" pretending to be just that.
      I apologize for clarifying the age and obviously irritating you.

      I'm not a fan of DeRozan's game. You've only joined this month but that should be obvious if you've spent any time here. One thing that drives me about some arguments for DeRozan is he is young. I think that ship has sailed. He is in his prime. The reason for mentioning it is in the context of your argument as JV enters his prime, DD will be leaving and quite possibly getting MEGA max dollars.

      I wasn't trying to be a dick. In fact in my original reply I was pretty complimentary on the thread idea.

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      • #33
        Axel wrote: View Post
        While the age difference is irrelevant to the topic, since you included it don't see what is wrong with someone clarifying for accuracy. Next season DD is 26 and JV is 23. Demar's age in the offseason is pretty irrelevant.

        Seems like you're making this into an issue when it shouldn't be.
        He said DD was 25 and JV was 23, both of which are correct… and then still got "corrected" on it. I guess I'm missing something.

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        • #34
          Fully wrote: View Post
          He said DD was 25 and JV was 23, both of which are correct. I'm not sure he's the one who's making this into an issue when it's not?
          Apparently it's because I said they're 2 years apart when it's actually 2.75 years apart. I really hope that type of senseless nitpicking isn't common here. I wasn't trying to assert that DeMar is a young prospect or something, he's peaking/very close to peaked (in terms of ability, however I feel his production could be superior with a different system).

          I'm not a DeRozan fanboy, I'm not trying to say he's still young, you guys don't need to attack me. If you told me right now "Ok JWash you're GM now you can only keep one, JV or DeRozan" I'd trade DeRozan so fast he'd drop both Ds in his two names.

          That being said. I see the DD, JV pairing as a positive. McHAPPY said that DeMar will be exiting his prime as JV enters his, which is sort of true, but i'd rather look at it this way. If you keep them together, their ages at the start of each season:

          2015-16: 26 & 23
          2016-17: 27 & 24
          2017-18: 28 & 25
          2018-19: 29 & 26
          2019-20: 30 & 27

          DeRozan despite being a good athlete actually doesn't rely on his athleticism that much to be effective (he plays an old man's game), so I don't see him really dropping off much until he starts getting into his 30s. In which case we would still have 4-5 years at least of "prime" JV and "prime" DD.

          I mean let's be real, IF DD can be retained for a reasonable price and no trade is on the table to move into the top 5 in this draft... then why not keep them together? You have the two weakest positions in the league taken care of long-term.

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          • #35
            Well simply in terms of playing games, they are 3 years apart not 2. Since age is a factor in determining career arcs, progression, etc, it's a legit point to make.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #36
              JWash wrote: View Post
              Apparently it's because I said they're 2 years apart when it's actually 2.75 years apart. I really hope that type of senseless nitpicking isn't common here. I wasn't trying to assert that DeMar is a young prospect or something, he's peaking/very close to peaked (in terms of ability, however I feel his production could be superior with a different system).

              I'm not a DeRozan fanboy, I'm not trying to say he's still young, you guys don't need to attack me. If you told me right now "Ok JWash you're GM now you can only keep one, JV or DeRozan" I'd trade DeRozan so fast he'd drop both Ds in his two names.

              That being said. I see the DD, JV pairing as a positive. McHAPPY said that DeMar will be exiting his prime as JV enters his, which is sort of true, but i'd rather look at it this way. If you keep them together, their ages at the start of each season:

              2015-16: 26 & 23
              2016-17: 27 & 24
              2017-18: 28 & 25
              2018-19: 29 & 26
              2019-20: 30 & 27

              DeRozan despite being a good athlete actually doesn't rely on his athleticism that much to be effective (he plays an old man's game), so I don't see him really dropping off much until he starts getting into his 30s. In which case we would still have 4-5 years at least of "prime" JV and "prime" DD.

              I mean let's be real, IF DD can be retained for a reasonable price and no trade is on the table to move into the top 5 in this draft... then why not keep them together? You have the two weakest positions in the league taken care of long-term.
              I don't mean to nitpick but DeRozan is an unrestricted free agent next summer if he opts out. He will but if he doesn't he is an UFA in 2017.

              How is he guaranteed to be here long term?

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              • #37
                JWash wrote: View Post
                I'm sick of reading about "fit" when it comes to this team.

                This team is currently not competing for anything other than being first round fodder. "Fit" does not matter. We need talent.

                Not even saying that DeRozan needs to stay. But pointing to "fit" as the reason he needs to go makes little to no sense, when we don't even have core pieces in place (other than possibly JV).

                By fit, I am referring to a shooting guard who cannot shoot. The same guy who says that any shot he can get off is a good shot. The same guy who says that he prefers taking contested shots over open shots. The same guy who can't even shoot 30% from 3. The same guy who is content in taking the bulk of his shot attempts from the most difficult and inefficient area on the court.

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                • #38
                  DeMar will be a 7 year vet when he opts out.. JV will be a 4 year rookie. Different classes, different extensions. JV's can be controlled because it can be matched. DD can be a UFA and can leave town if he wants to.

                  As a GM it would be easier to manager the situation when a guy is coming off his rookie contract over a vet heading into free agency.

                  As an asset DeMar is the most valuable this summer.. otherwise I'd hope he resigns for an affordable sum... if not, then he can become a drain on the cap despite the cap going up. Can't pay a guy like a #1 option when he's not.. that's not going to help a team win a championship.

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                  • #39
                    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                    I don't mean to nitpick but DeRozan is an unrestricted free agent next summer if he opts out. He will but if he doesn't he is an UFA in 2017.

                    How is he guaranteed to be here long term?
                    He said "if Demar can be signed to a reasonable deal".

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                    • #40
                      Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
                      He said "if Demar can be signed to a reasonable deal".
                      does anyone really think that's going to happen?

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                      • #41
                        Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
                        He said "if Demar can be signed to a reasonable deal".
                        I know.

                        But he also said guaranteed.

                        Nothing is guaranteed in UFA.

                        And few things are reasonable.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          JWash wrote: View Post
                          They both play for the Raptors last I checked?

                          I've noticed a growing narrative that you either have to pick one or the other, and I don't understand it. They don't play the same position or even occupy the same space on the court. Neither of them interferes with the ability of the other to be a member of the team.

                          So why is it that so many of the DeRozan stans think so poorly of JV (Can't be trusted in the 4th, doesn't defend well, has no potential to be great, etc), and at the same time so many of the JV stans think poorly of DeRozan (chucker, selfish, needs to be traded).

                          They're 25 and 23, both players with all-star talent and can be a part of the core going forwards. Both are due for paydays in 2016 free agency. I just don't really get the divide on something that shouldn't be divisive at all.

                          You don't have to hate one player on the team to like another. I kind of understood with the Ross/DeRozan thing at first because they are both shooting guards, but this doesn't even make sense.
                          Just a reminder of how this thread started.

                          It has gone from people's opinions and has turned to fit for the future.

                          Originally it was why people tend to like one over the other.

                          Thread seems to have lost the purpose and what I felt, i.e. In my opinion, what made it a good discussion topic.

                          It's uniqueness is lost sadly.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I know Demar emulates Kobe, hence the crazy fade aways, but I hope what Demar learns from Kobe is how Kobe makes big men play much better. You may say Kobe had Shaq and Gasol who are future HOFs, but Kobe also turned Bynum into an all-star (where is he now?). Kobe also made scrubs like Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown look decent/serviceable.

                            JV has so much potential to be a solid big man. He's gifted with decent offense and is a good FT shooter for a big. Demar and JV should work together and try to be a solid 1-2 punch duo.

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                            • #44
                              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                              I don't mean to nitpick but DeRozan is an unrestricted free agent next summer if he opts out. He will but if he doesn't he is an UFA in 2017.

                              How is he guaranteed to be here long term?
                              I started off by saying "IF" in big capital letters... "DeMar can be retained for a reasonable price" then in the same train of thought I go on to say "You have the two weakest positions in the league taken care of long-term."

                              At this point I'm going to just assume you're a troll and leave it at that.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                KHD wrote: View Post
                                does anyone really think that's going to happen?
                                I'm sure someone does.
                                Personally I'm torn. Part of me says there's gotta be a team that'll offer DD at least 20M and it'll be hard for him to turn that down and part of me says maybe he'll sign for 16-17M when we factor in the extra year on the contract, and the hometown discount.

                                mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                                I know.

                                But he also said guaranteed.

                                Nothing is guaranteed in UFA.

                                And few things are reasonable.
                                Where did he say guaranteed? Skimmed through his post and didn't see it but maybe I missed it

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