Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

[OldSkoolCool]

DD constantly looks off JV because he is a selfish basketball player with poor court vision...so explain to me why he is a good pairing with JV?

Actually I would say TRoss is a better fit because he actually passes to JV, and JV to him at the three. Those are two players who have at times played off each other and made each other better.

DD makes people around him WORSE imo

[ezz_bee]

I think one of the main divides is shot location and usage. JVs shots come close to the basket, Derozan (when he isn't driving) come from mid-range. Every mid-range shot Derozan takes, is one less shot JV could have had close to the basket. So even though they don't play the same position, I think some people believe that players looking off JV (although this is normally directed at pretty much all our wings) hasn't allowed JV to progress the way he potentially could have.

For what it's worth, I don't think you have to chose between the two. I was not a fan of Derozan 2-3 seasons ago, I figured he was what he was going to be. Although I was mostly correct, (remember the two off seasons where we held a referendum on whether Derozan could develop a 3pt shot?) that he is what he is, he does have above average work ethic and has improved his D, so overall I'm pretty meh.

The biggest problem with Derozan is how much he is bothered by tall and long defenders. Otto Porter put him in his pocket. This is a huge problem in the playoffs.

I've been a pretty big JV homer since he was drafted, but I'm totally confused by his development. This is who I thought we were getting, based on his international play pre-draft...

A mobile defensive C, who would and could readily defend up to the 3 pt line. Seriously, is some international games he'd full court press opposing pgs on random possessions and do a very acceptable job. He'd contain wing players on the 3pt line after switches.

Offensively, he had 1 NBA ready offensive skill, pick and roll dive man. He was wonderful in the pick and roll. He'd catch the ball high and finish high.

What happened this year? I'm hoping it's a case of weight being put on, but it not being entirely all muscle/he's not used to carry it??? He looked like Tyson Chandler with the potential of a 15fter. He doesn't look anything like Chandler atm. I still don't understand how he doesn't get two dunks (or trips to the foul line) per game out of the pnr.

If the player we end up with is more like this season's JV than his formerly mobile self, I'm not sure how much I like the new JV.

I also think it's funny that there was pretty much unanimous agreement at the time that the Derozan extension was terrible. Even though I didn't like Derozan at the time I thought that it was pretty reasonable. A couple years in people changed their criticism from the over amount/year to the fact that there was a player option at the end (which is valid player options are just bad for team building/cap management), but when it happened it was all about the money being too much. We have Derozan for 9.5 million this year, which is way below market, and is a huge part of why many of us consider him the most valuable trade asset atm.

Both players could be starters on championship level team, but not the best or second best player on a championship team. Neither one should be untouchable (although JV is cheaper and more controlable). I'm not sure what road the Raptors can, and therefore should take to get to legit contender status, but I'm still hopeful Ujiri can figure it out.

[distorsun]

ADVANCE STATS ARE JUST STATS.
It's just a complement to Points/Rebs/Assist. Some of the stats should also be part of the scoring board.

Without getting into the social aspects that largely drive the divide, I believe it simply comes down to the belief in the value of advanced stats.

Advanced stats portray JV as an under utilized offensive weapon who can be very efficient. Those same stats show Demar to be an inefficient high volume shooter.

If you don't believe in advanced stats, then JV doesn't produce much per game and Demar does.

Obviously this is an oversimplification of a diverse and dynamic group of posters here at RR, but the divide you speak of starts here. Throw in years of repetitiveness and rude remarks, and you get a pretty strong group in either camp with a bevy in between.

Personally, advanced stats aren't like ghosts, UFOs or big foot; it's not something you choose to believe as real or not, but rather as more pieces to the puzzle. All stats are simply math, some are just easier to understand than others. All work together to show what happened.

[distorsun]

1st) we are in 2015 , not 1995.
2nd) very few guys can hit that shot with consistency, it's virtually an art form.
that's why ppl hates those shots. guys thinks they can hit it with regularity , but in really it's a shot in the high 20% for every one NOT naming MJ or Kobe.

In other words, it's a very difficult shot.

Hmm. You hate fadeaway and mid range jumpers? so you hate this guy too? i'm guessing the answer is no. So instead of saying you hate fadeaway and mid range jumpers just tell it like it is, you hate DeRozan. It's ok lol #RealTalk

[yabadabayolo]

I know.

But he also said guaranteed.

Nothing is guaranteed in UFA.

And few things are reasonable.

Lol no he didn't. Your obviously trolling right now. Your literally nitpicking every little thing he's saying. And on the last one, your nitpick didn't even happen

[JimiCliff]

I've always felt that this was the reason for the divide:

- For several years, there've been many posters critical of demar, based on his style of play/ projections of how that style of play will continue to develop/how his presence will impact the the future fortunes of the franchise.

- Often, these posters are also fans of JVs game/potential.

- Fans of demar recognized this and started going after JV, as a kind of payback/response to the critcism of demar.

[Just Is]

I've always felt that this was the reason for the divide:

- For several years, there've been many posters critical of demar, based on his style of play/ projections of how that style of play will continue to develop/how his presence will impact the the future fortunes of the franchise.

- Often, these posters are also fans of JVs game/potential.

- Fans of demar recognized this and started going after JV, as a kind of payback/response to the critcism of demar.

I wouldn't consider myself especially attached to either (although I do actually like both players) (although I did meet Demar before and he honestly seemed like a cool guy) but I always assumed that this was what it was; more than anything else.

Most of the actual issues that I think arise in regards to both players (on both sides) is really an issue with coaching anyways.

[JWash]

Any competent coach would have these two working together seamlessly. I mean you have an athletic wing who excels going to the basket coming off screens and is a good passer, and a center who thrives in the pick and roll and has great touch around the rim to score off dump-offs or tip in missed layups...

Seems like they'd be great together if utilized properly.

Instead we play 4-guard lineups and take turns watching Lowry, Lou, DeRozan and Vasquez fail at isolating.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I think DeRozan and JV are lightning-rods for a much larger issue, which is the main source of division between Raptors fans: the Raptors' compete window.

Team DeRozan

The Raptors have won back-to-back division crowns, and are coming off a season in which they set the franchise record for wins. Overall, they're a relatively young team and have definite opportunities to improve in the short-term: #20 draft pick in 2015, significant cap space (somewhat dependent on the status of their own free agents), 2 x 2016 1st round picks, and organic growth (ie: JV, Ross, Bruno, Bebe).

For fans that believe in this team and think the core group is good enough to win now, building off the success of the past few seasons, DeRozan is your guy. Ideally another #1/#2 guy can be added via the draft and/or free agency, but DeRozan is an essential piece of the puzzle to build around/with.

Most fans in this camp also believe that DeRozan's well-publicized love for the city/franchise will keep him here long-term, at a fair/reasonable contract.

Team JV

The Raptors aren't as good as their record indicates, because they've been propped up by playing in an historically weak division, in an absolutely dreadful conference. They should have methodically rebuilt (tanked) immediately upon drafting JV, while he was spending a year overseas. BC's core (Casey, DeRozan & Lowry) has been kept together because of their unexpected success, similar to how BC had no choice but to keep Mitchell after the unexpected division championship back in 2007. With DeRozan having an opt-out, it could be the 2007-Raptors/Bosh-walks-for-nothing history repeating itself.

For fans that don't think the Raptors are a truly good team (ie: terrible coaching, top players are no better than #3 options, systems not matching player skillsets, etc...), the preference is to rebuild/retool and take a step back for the next 1-2 seasons, to build a better team the 'right' way.

Most fans in this camp believe that DeRozan will either opt-out and walk away (losing a valuable asset for nothing), or will opt-out and demand max-ish money (well above what would be deemed a good-value, especially when wanting to maintain cap space for the summer of 2016 free agency). When considering that most fans in this camp would prefer some degree of retool/rebuild, coupled with the age and contract status of the team's core players (DeRozan and Lowry), it just makes sense to cash-in both assets now, in order to kick-start the process.

Given JV's age, potential and contract status, it just makes sense to keep him to build with (not around), while installing offensive/defensive systems that more effectively harness his strengths (ie: more P&R on offense; let him be a stay-at-home defensive anchor on defense).



Since one group points to the necessity of keeping DeRozan to continue the winning momentum, while the other group sees JV as [one of] the only guy(s) worthy of keeping through a major retool/rebuild, it only makes sense that they'd be pitted against each other.

[JWash]

I think DeRozan and JV are lightning-rods for a much larger issue, which is the main source of division between Raptors fans: the Raptors' compete window.

Team DeRozan

The Raptors have won back-to-back division crowns, and are coming off a season in which they set the franchise record for wins. Overall, they're a relatively young team and have definite opportunities to improve in the short-term: #20 draft pick in 2015, significant cap space (somewhat dependent on the status of their own free agents), 2 x 2016 1st round picks, and organic growth (ie: JV, Ross, Bruno, Bebe).

For fans that believe in this team and think the core group is good enough to win now, building off the success of the past few seasons, DeRozan is your guy. Ideally another #1/#2 guy can be added via the draft and/or free agency, but DeRozan is an essential piece of the puzzle to build around/with.

Most fans in this camp also believe that DeRozan's well-publicized love for the city/franchise will keep him here long-term, at a fair/reasonable contract.

Team JV

The Raptors aren't as good as their record indicates, because they've been propped up by playing in an historically weak division, in an absolutely dreadful conference. They should have methodically rebuilt (tanked) immediately upon drafting JV, while he was spending a year overseas. BC's core (Casey, DeRozan & Lowry) has been kept together because of their unexpected success, similar to how BC had no choice but to keep Mitchell after the unexpected division championship back in 2007. With DeRozan having an opt-out, it could be the 2007-Raptors/Bosh-walks-for-nothing history repeating itself.

For fans that don't think the Raptors are a truly good team (ie: terrible coaching, top players are no better than #3 options, systems not matching player skillsets, etc...), the preference is to rebuild/retool and take a step back for the next 1-2 seasons, to build a better team the 'right' way.

Most fans in this camp believe that DeRozan will either opt-out and walk away (losing a valuable asset for nothing), or will opt-out and demand max-ish money (well above what would be deemed a good-value, especially when wanting to maintain cap space for the summer of 2016 free agency). When considering that most fans in this camp would prefer some degree of retool/rebuild, coupled with the age and contract status of the team's core players (DeRozan and Lowry), it just makes sense to cash-in both assets now, in order to kick-start the process.

Given JV's age, potential and contract status, it just makes sense to keep him to build with (not around), while installing offensive/defensive systems that more effectively harness his strengths (ie: more P&R on offense; let him be a stay-at-home defensive anchor on defense).



Since one group points to the necessity of keeping DeRozan to continue the winning momentum, while the other group sees JV as [one of] the only guy(s) worthy of keeping through a major retool/rebuild, it only makes sense that they'd be pitted against each other.

This is a nice post, but you can't just categorize fans into two groups like that.

First of all there are people who want to keep DeRozan but actually want to retool/rebuild/whatever you want to call it. That's just one example of how your post is pretty flawed.

Trying to oversimplify things usually results in the wrong conclusion being reached.

[Axel]

This is a nice post, but you can't just categorize fans into two groups like that.

First of all there are people who want to keep DeRozan but actually want to retool/rebuild/whatever you want to call it. That's just one example of how your post is pretty flawed.

Trying to oversimplify things usually results in the wrong conclusion being reached.

So you ask a question that can't really be boiled down to a simple answer, then complain when someone presents a nice response? Why do I feel like this thread should have been a rhetorical question?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This is a nice post, but you can't just categorize fans into two groups like that.

First of all there are people who want to keep DeRozan but actually want to retool/rebuild/whatever you want to call it. That's just one example of how your post is pretty flawed.

Trying to oversimplify things usually results in the wrong conclusion being reached.

I didn't suggest that it was the only issue at play.

--

I also specifically included a callout to the fact that the pro-DD camp still wants to see roster improvement. The only ways to do that would be by signing an impact free agent, getting lucky @ #20 (I mentioned both options), or by trading Lowry (not mentioned until later, under the pro-JV section).

--

Keeping DeRozan and/or Lowry (especially both) seriously limits the ability to improve the roster, however. That's where the circular argument about the win-now camp trying to 'have their cake and eat it too' often comes into play. Keeping one or both of them wouldn't be a rebuild. Trading both would be a rebuild. Trading one of them would be a retool. Keeping both would simply be reloading the role players.

The posters that get lumped into the pro-JV camp are largely the ones that want a real rebuild, which would require moving DeRozan and Lowry (and firing DC, but that's a sentiment shared by folks in both camps). You fundamentally can't rebuild AND keep the core intact.

Ironically, I think your response only serves to illustrate that my observation has merit. You argue that pro-DD folks also want a rebuild, yet the pro-rebuild folks would respond by saying any roster that keeps DD isn't actually a rebuild (we have an entire thread dedicated to trying to define rebuild/retool/etc...).

Just as we saw last offseason during the infamous 'tank' debates, people often get hung-up on the semantics of subjective terminology, which causes individual perceptions to frame the discussion differently. Terms like "tanking", "rebuild", "retool", "reload", etc... don't have universally accepted definitions, which leads to philosophical differences clouding debates and 'pro-x' / 'pro-y' camps being defined.

My only point was that, for the most part, pro-DD = minor changes + continue to compete now, while pro-JV = major changes + step back now to be more competitive in 2/3 seasons.

[OldSkoolCool]

Any competent coach would have these two working together seamlessly. I mean you have an athletic wing who excels going to the basket coming off screens and is a good passer, and a center who thrives in the pick and roll and has great touch around the rim to score off dump-offs or tip in missed layups...

Seems like they'd be great together if utilized properly.

Instead we play 4-guard lineups and take turns watching Lowry, Lou, DeRozan and Vasquez fail at isolating.

DD can't dribble and is a poor passer IMO compared to the talent in the league. Sorry but building around him is a setup for failure

You fundamentally can't rebuild AND keep the core intact.

This is a very important statement.

People want to rebuild around a core of DD. The shitty team we have been watching for the past few months and the 3 years prior to this were with DD as a core piece. No thank you

[yabadabayolo]

People want to rebuild around a core of DD. The shitty team we have been watching for the past few months and the 3 years prior to this were with DD as a core piece. No thank you

that three year span has been the best three year span in the history of the toronto raptors

three more franchise best year pls

[CalgaryRapsFan]

that three year span has been the best three year span in the history of the toronto raptors history.

three more franchise best year pls

If back-to-back 1st round defeats, limited opportunity to improve this offseason (#20 pick and around $15M cap space, depending on re-signing their own free agents) after a terrible 2nd half of the season, and a 'star' player who might walk for nothing at the end of the next season isn't enough to raise red flags about this team's long-term potential, then I worry that you're letting ~15 years of expansion futility diminish your expectations.