Why can't we like DeMar AND JV?

[JWash]

Getting rid of the 15 game "Bargnani" Start to the season when the team was catching major breaks and playing way beyond their means that leaves the raps with the following.

Season win record 36-31 - win % of .5373

With Demar
24/22 - Win % of .522

Without Demar
12/9 - Win % of .571

Unless I am mistaken, .571 is better than .522

Which is why Demar winshare/48 on the team, amungst players averaging at least 20 minutes is 7th out of 9. only having more impact on wins over Ross and Vasquez.

To be fair, one could argue that the "Bargnani" stretch actually continued on even after DeMar got injured. Style of play was the same yet the team kept winning going 11-5 I believe over the next 16 games.

[OldSkoolCool]

No, because it wasny demar winning those 15 games, demar started the season poorly, we just caught teams injured, ill prepared etc. The team overplayed.

If anything the teams ridiculously improbable start speaks more to everyone else other than demar.

*Lou Williams getting stupid hot was also more effective at winning games than DD was this season

[Bear]

K so if your going to exclude the part when the team was doing so well with demar. You gotta also exclude all the games when lowry was playing like an MVP. Cuz that also screams 15 game bargnani too !

No, because it wasny demar winning those 15 games, demar started the season poorly, we just caught teams injured, ill prepared etc. The team overplayed.

If anything the teams ridiculously improbable start speaks more to everyone else other than demar.

[yabadabayolo]

Getting rid of the 15 game "Bargnani" Start to the season when the team was catching major breaks and playing way beyond their means that leaves the raps with the following.

With Demar
24/20 - Win % of .545

Without Demar
12/9 - Win % of .571

Unless I am mistaken, .571 is better than .545

Which is why Demar winshare/48 on the team, amungst players averaging at least 20 minutes is 7th out of 9. only having more impact on wins over Ross and Vasquez.

K so if your going to exclude the part when the team was doing so well with demar. You gotta also exclude all the games when lowry was playing like an MVP. Cuz that also screams 15 game bargnani too !

[Bear]

Really, Jv had more of an impact than dd did. Really man.

Dd was the best player in the playoffs, nobody else showed up. Jv didn't even play for most of the year. How was he more instrumental that demar. That literally makes no sense

The stretch where demar was injured shows you how important he is to the team. Lowry had to play balls out and we still were playing pretty poorly.

Getting rid of the 15 game "Bargnani" Start to the season when the team was catching major breaks and playing way beyond their means that leaves the raps with the following.

Season win record 36-31 - win % of .5373

With Demar
24/22 - Win % of .522

Without Demar
12/9 - Win % of .571

Unless I am mistaken, .571 is better than .522

Which is why Demar winshare/48 on the team, amungst players averaging at least 20 minutes is 7th out of 9. only having more impact on wins over Ross and Vasquez.

[yabadabayolo]

Kyle Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas are more responsible for this

Not DD

Really, Jv had more of an impact than dd did. Really man.

Dd was the best player in the playoffs, nobody else showed up. Jv didn't even play for most of the year. How was he more instrumental that demar. That literally makes no sense

The stretch where demar was injured shows you how important he is to the team. Lowry had to play balls out and we still were playing pretty poorly.

[JawsGT]

True

Though what I take from that is that...DD has virtually no impact

Well of course you would lol. But I should add that I don't blame JV for anything. He probably could have done more in some aspects, but he wasn't responsible for the terrible team play. JV probably deserves the "has virtually no impact" descriptor more than DD. But for me, Demar did what he could, especially when you consider how awful Lowry and Lou were. Sure, he did take some poor shots, but that's not a change really. If Demar meets the "has virtually no impact" criteria, then I wonder if any positives he did bring to the table were just outweighed by the negatives that others (Lowry mostly) brought to the table. And those were very big negatives. One would have to be like LBJ to overcome the absolute shitty play that Lowry and Lou managed.

[JawsGT]

But seriously boys, y'all got the blinders on. There is no practical way to assess the talent on the team when the style of play the team uses is just so awful. The 13-14 season, after the Rudy trade, is more like the way this team needs to play in order to reach it's potential. And overall, both Lowry and DD performed better last season (although I would argue that DD is a better player now than he was last year, but did not perform that way, and Lowry just needs to get his head out of his ass).

This is a pretty good basketball team and has plenty of talent to make noise in the EC. Can we win it with this group? I don't think so, but that has as much to do with LBJ than our own roster. I don't think there is a single team in the East that can take down Lebron without significant changes to their players, coaches, style etc.

So the question really comes down to whether or not you believe there is a path to contention in the East while LBJ still dominates? Personally, I'm not sure there is, so I would be fine with tanking, which I believe would involve trading both DD and Lowry. However, I'm not fine with dismantling the roster simply because DD has poor shot selection or JV's development is being (apparently) stunted and he's not getting enough touches. Those are bad reasons to make moves, when clearly the larger issue is the style of play being employed by the coaches and/or management. And I say management here, because the change in style of play between seasons and ultimate implosion of the team reeks of meddling by upper management. I'm not sure anymore how much blame is Casey's, because if most of what went wrong with this team was really his fault, then I have to believe he would have been relieved.

[OldSkoolCool]

Also more responsible for the debacle against Washington.

True

Though what I take from that is that...DD has virtually no impact

[JawsGT]

Kyle Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas are more responsible for this

Not DD

Also more responsible for the debacle against Washington.

[OldSkoolCool]

that three year span has been the best three year span in the history of the toronto raptors

three more franchise best year pls

Kyle Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas are more responsible for this

Not DD

[CalgaryRapsFan]

that three year span has been the best three year span in the history of the toronto raptors history.

three more franchise best year pls

If back-to-back 1st round defeats, limited opportunity to improve this offseason (#20 pick and around $15M cap space, depending on re-signing their own free agents) after a terrible 2nd half of the season, and a 'star' player who might walk for nothing at the end of the next season isn't enough to raise red flags about this team's long-term potential, then I worry that you're letting ~15 years of expansion futility diminish your expectations.

[yabadabayolo]

People want to rebuild around a core of DD. The shitty team we have been watching for the past few months and the 3 years prior to this were with DD as a core piece. No thank you

that three year span has been the best three year span in the history of the toronto raptors

three more franchise best year pls

[OldSkoolCool]

Any competent coach would have these two working together seamlessly. I mean you have an athletic wing who excels going to the basket coming off screens and is a good passer, and a center who thrives in the pick and roll and has great touch around the rim to score off dump-offs or tip in missed layups...

Seems like they'd be great together if utilized properly.

Instead we play 4-guard lineups and take turns watching Lowry, Lou, DeRozan and Vasquez fail at isolating.

DD can't dribble and is a poor passer IMO compared to the talent in the league. Sorry but building around him is a setup for failure

You fundamentally can't rebuild AND keep the core intact.

This is a very important statement.

People want to rebuild around a core of DD. The shitty team we have been watching for the past few months and the 3 years prior to this were with DD as a core piece. No thank you

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This is a nice post, but you can't just categorize fans into two groups like that.

First of all there are people who want to keep DeRozan but actually want to retool/rebuild/whatever you want to call it. That's just one example of how your post is pretty flawed.

Trying to oversimplify things usually results in the wrong conclusion being reached.

I didn't suggest that it was the only issue at play.

--

I also specifically included a callout to the fact that the pro-DD camp still wants to see roster improvement. The only ways to do that would be by signing an impact free agent, getting lucky @ #20 (I mentioned both options), or by trading Lowry (not mentioned until later, under the pro-JV section).

--

Keeping DeRozan and/or Lowry (especially both) seriously limits the ability to improve the roster, however. That's where the circular argument about the win-now camp trying to 'have their cake and eat it too' often comes into play. Keeping one or both of them wouldn't be a rebuild. Trading both would be a rebuild. Trading one of them would be a retool. Keeping both would simply be reloading the role players.

The posters that get lumped into the pro-JV camp are largely the ones that want a real rebuild, which would require moving DeRozan and Lowry (and firing DC, but that's a sentiment shared by folks in both camps). You fundamentally can't rebuild AND keep the core intact.

Ironically, I think your response only serves to illustrate that my observation has merit. You argue that pro-DD folks also want a rebuild, yet the pro-rebuild folks would respond by saying any roster that keeps DD isn't actually a rebuild (we have an entire thread dedicated to trying to define rebuild/retool/etc...).

Just as we saw last offseason during the infamous 'tank' debates, people often get hung-up on the semantics of subjective terminology, which causes individual perceptions to frame the discussion differently. Terms like "tanking", "rebuild", "retool", "reload", etc... don't have universally accepted definitions, which leads to philosophical differences clouding debates and 'pro-x' / 'pro-y' camps being defined.

My only point was that, for the most part, pro-DD = minor changes + continue to compete now, while pro-JV = major changes + step back now to be more competitive in 2/3 seasons.