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DeRozan for #5

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  • Bonus Jonas
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Re read my post with the edits...

    The whole "no knucklehead" thing pre-empts any random possibilities from having a non-guaranteed contract to deal with.

    And also re-read the bit I added with DeMar. Also they do not have a clear-cut starting SG. Is it Oladipo? That's an undersized starting backcourt. And Fournier started a good chunk of games last year too. Also if they are starting Fournier and DeMar, they have decent size (compared to starting Oladipo), and Fournier does give shooting. Meanwhile the 6th man role may actually be the ideal one for undersized combo guard like Oladipo.
    Wow. I'm ending this argument if you really think there's any chance Orlando moves Dipo to the bench to make way for Derozan. And yes Fournier started some games, either because Dipo was injured or when it was early and they didn't want Payton starting yet.

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  • Bonus Jonas
    replied
    Just saw your edits which are not helping your case whatsoever.

    1. Not many free agents would have wanted to sign to a partially guaranteed deal on a bad team unless they aren't going to get any other offers at all. So yeah I guess they could have signed Mike James. But it's a good deal regardless because of the asset he's become.

    2. Great job skewing your numbers by moving Fournier to the starting lineup. That wouldn't happen in a million years because Oladipo has that one stamped in. Their most likely starting 5 would be Payton/Dipo/Demar/Vuc and Frye/Harris.

    So 26.2%/33.9%/28.4%/33.3% and one of 39.3%/36.4%.

    However, putting Frye in means you've got your entire frontcourt which is flat out bad defensively (and like you just mentioned Frye is useless other than his ability to shoot three's, he's a worse version of Novak).

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    Not really a shot at you but take it how you like. But to say he could only be filler and bring back a "minimal asset" is being blind to the fact he's in the exact same position as Salmons was last year. If you haven't been around for the last year, that happened to net us the #16th pick of a draft that happened a year prior to the trade (who hadn't even been given the chance to play in the NBA) and the eventual 6th man of the year. Yes, Lou Will over performed but he was still an asset and quite frankly getting Bebe alone would be winning that trade.

    And you said Demar would be less of a spacing nightmare than he would be for a lot of teams but honestly I couldn't name a single team he would fit more poorly in. He can't guard 3's and we've witnessed that first hand, he can't shoot, and the ball sticks in his hand. All three are poor fits with Orlando as they already have a clear cut starting SG, they have no shooting from their backcourt and no team in the NBA can afford to have one 3 point shooter in their starting 5 and between him and Harris, they would have the most stagnant offense in the league. I'm genuinely curious to see who you think would be a worse fit for Demar spacing wise.
    Re read my post with the edits...

    The whole "no knucklehead" thing pre-empts any random possibilities from having a non-guaranteed contract to deal with.

    And also re-read the bit I added with DeMar. Also they do not have a clear-cut starting SG. Is it Oladipo? That's an undersized starting backcourt. And Fournier started a good chunk of games last year too. Also if they are starting Fournier and DeMar, they have decent size (compared to starting Oladipo), and Fournier does give shooting. Meanwhile the 6th man role may actually be the ideal one for undersized combo guard like Oladipo.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bonus Jonas
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This is clearly a shot at me, but this is a dramatic overstatement. He could only be filler. They didn't need to reach the floor (you can go into a season below the cap floor). He doesn't offer any positives in terms of intangibles/leadership you want from a veteran. And since he can only be filler (or now some random non-guaranteed piece to try and get a probably minimal asset back), if you don't use him it was a completely pointless move that couldn't really bring positives on or off the court, and was a risk to do damage in the development of a young core. I wouldn't want Gordon around young guys like Oladipo and Payton. He's one of the last guys I'd want to risk allowing to influence my young guys.

    ---

    But back on why Orlando might be a team you could convince into taking DeMar....They badly need a perimeter scorer, and it looks unclear (at best) if Harris is who they want to keep their long-term. And he'd be less of a spacing nightmare for them than he would for many teams. They could actually put two stretch bigs on the floor next to him (Vuc and Frye). It would be unorthodox, that's for sure. But they really do need an upgrade of some kind in terms of a scorer on the perimeter.
    Not really a shot at you but take it how you like. But to say he could only be filler and bring back a "minimal asset" is being blind to the fact he's in the exact same position as Salmons was last year. If you haven't been around for the last year, that happened to net us the #16th pick of a draft that happened a year prior to the trade (who hadn't even been given the chance to play in the NBA) and the eventual 6th man of the year. Yes, Lou Will over performed but he was still an asset and quite frankly getting Bebe alone would be winning that trade.

    And you said Demar would be less of a spacing nightmare than he would be for a lot of teams but honestly I couldn't name a single team he would fit more poorly in. He can't guard 3's and we've witnessed that first hand, he can't shoot, and the ball sticks in his hand. All three are poor fits with Orlando as they already have a clear cut starting SG, they have no shooting from their backcourt and no team in the NBA can afford to have one 3 point shooter in their starting 5 and between him and Harris, they would have the most stagnant offense in the league. I'm genuinely curious to see who you think would be a worse fit for Demar spacing wise.

    Leave a comment:


  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    Anyone that thinks Orlando would want anything to do with Derozan is out of their mind. They've got two perimeter guys who are bad shooters, and Harris isn't terrific. Adding Derozan to that would be flat out stupid and giving up the 5 for him might be the worst trade of the last 5 years.



    I think this is more plausible but also with our 20 going the other way. Orlando would still want to add something by way of young guys.

    Orlando Depth Chart:

    Payton/Vasquez/Ridnour
    Dipo/Ross
    Harris/Fournier
    PPat/A. Gordon
    Vuc/O'quinn(assuming they resign him)/Dedmon

    +#20 Pick

    This doesn't look bad at all and gives them plenty of shooting off the bench and a proper stretch 4 next to Vuc.

    They clear Frye off their books for the 2016 offseason. And if they wanted I'd be fine with switching Harkless or Nicholson for Dedmon.

    Not to mention whatever they flip Gordon for. Which by the way was a fantastic way for them to use their cap space, they signed a great asset and didn't have to compromise the fact that they were tanking. If you think that was a bad deal you must not know much about the cap to be honest.
    This is clearly a shot at me, but this is a dramatic overstatement. He could only be filler. They didn't need to reach the floor (you can go into a season below the cap floor). He doesn't offer any positives in terms of intangibles/leadership you want from a veteran. And since he can only be filler (or now some random non-guaranteed piece to try and get a probably minimal asset back), if you don't use him it was a completely pointless move that couldn't really bring positives on or off the court, and was a risk to do damage in the development of a young core. I wouldn't want Gordon around young guys like Oladipo and Payton. He's one of the last guys I'd want to risk allowing to influence my young guys.

    **To put it like...I think it's good ol moderator 'thead' who says it...a strict no-knucklehead policy is what it's all about. You want a cap-oriented move? Sure there could've been tons of options without that knucklehead risk associated to them.

    ---

    But back on why Orlando might be a team you could convince into taking DeMar....They badly need a perimeter scorer, and it looks unclear (at best) if Harris is who they want to keep their long-term. And he'd be less of a spacing nightmare for them than he would for many teams. They could actually put two stretch bigs on the floor next to him (Vuc and Frye). It would be unorthodox, that's for sure. But they really do need an upgrade of some kind in terms of a scorer on the perimeter.
    **Oh, and to put things in perspective, if he, say, started next to Payton, Fournier, Frye and Vuc, they'd have better floor spacing than the 49-win team he just started on here in Toronto. Fournier (.378) and Frye (.393) are both good shooters, and while Vuc doesn't take many 3s, he's an elite shooter in the mid-range (.471 from 10-16, .468 16-23).
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun May 31st, 2015, 06:40 PM.

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    Fully wrote: View Post
    The Ben Gordon signing by Orlando had a non guaranteed second year for $4.5 million - meaning they can flip him to a cap crunched team this summer that will waive him immediately for the relief. Sort of like what Masai did with John Salmons contract last summer - which turned out to be a pretty good asset (landed Lou Will and Bebe in return for it).

    On the court it was not a good move as Gordon has been bad for years but it was a pretty good way to utilize some extra cap space in a year where they didn't really plan on being competitive anyway.
    Right, but if you're just looking for some kind of cap-related move, you still don't want to sign someone who could be a "locker room cancer" risk. Part of the point with such moves is that while you may not really get return on the court, at least you could add a positive presence to the roster off the court.

    There are very good reasons for the type of move it was, but I can't support any move with that type of risk, especially on a young team lacking solid leadership.

    So getting back to the original point, Orlando's front office might just be stupid enough to convince themselves they need someone like DeMar. It wouldn't be a perfect fit, but there are enough positives. I mean...Ben Gordon signing...Jacque Vaughn as a coach...Giving Channing Frye a 4/32M deal*.....These are not things that scream competent management. I think they've done a decent job picking out their young talent, but haven't really done well in other facets.

    *Before the "but he's a stretch 4 and those are valuable" comments start, Frye is far too slow to guard 4s, and too soft for 5s, and doesn't really contribute anything at a decent level beyond shooting. He's not even a good rebounder. He's a taller Novak with a worse shot at this point. It was a kneejerk reaction to missing out on 2Pat, and feeling they needed to sign a known stretch big to save face.

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  • Bonus Jonas
    replied
    Anyone that thinks Orlando would want anything to do with Derozan is out of their mind. They've got two perimeter guys who are bad shooters, and Harris isn't terrific. Adding Derozan to that would be flat out stupid and giving up the 5 for him might be the worst trade of the last 5 years.

    mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Or if this appears to be highway robbery, which it probably is, maybe Toronto eats Channing Frye's contract in which case Frye, Harkless, Nicholson, #5 for Vasquez, PP, Ross goes through straight forward.
    I think this is more plausible but also with our 20 going the other way. Orlando would still want to add something by way of young guys.

    Orlando Depth Chart:

    Payton/Vasquez/Ridnour
    Dipo/Ross
    Harris/Fournier
    PPat/A. Gordon
    Vuc/O'quinn(assuming they resign him)/Dedmon

    +#20 Pick

    This doesn't look bad at all and gives them plenty of shooting off the bench and a proper stretch 4 next to Vuc.

    They clear Frye off their books for the 2016 offseason. And if they wanted I'd be fine with switching Harkless or Nicholson for Dedmon.

    Not to mention whatever they flip Gordon for. Which by the way was a fantastic way for them to use their cap space, they signed a great asset and didn't have to compromise the fact that they were tanking. If you think that was a bad deal you must not know much about the cap to be honest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fully
    replied
    The Ben Gordon signing by Orlando had a non guaranteed second year for $4.5 million - meaning they can flip him to a cap crunched team this summer that will waive him immediately for the relief. Sort of like what Masai did with John Salmons contract last summer - which turned out to be a pretty good asset (landed Lou Will and Bebe in return for it).

    On the court it was not a good move as Gordon has been bad for years but it was a pretty good way to utilize some extra cap space in a year where they didn't really plan on being competitive anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jangles
    replied
    special1 wrote: View Post
    Reggie Jackson and Monroe sign/trade instead of Jennings sounds pretty good. I like Jackson. He's a big PG who seems to be a good defender. Although, I'm not even sure if this is possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not sure how I feel about Monroe. I'd love Jackson, KCP and #8 but I suspect the Pistons wouldn't bite.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncle_Si
    replied
    special1 wrote: View Post
    Maybe if they signed n traded Greg Monroe to us....even then... I dunno if I'd do this. Not sure how Monroe n JV would work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What if Caldwell-Pope was throw in?

    Just think, with the #8 you're looking at Porzingis, Hezonija or Winslowe

    Leave a comment:


  • MACK11
    replied
    special1 wrote: View Post
    Maybe if they signed n traded Greg Monroe to us....even then... I dunno if I'd do this. Not sure how Monroe n JV would work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Just waive JV and problem solved

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  • special1
    replied
    Jangles wrote: View Post
    I would hope we could do better. At least get Reggie instead of Brandon. Jennings has had 25 good games in his career. We could do better for an upper tier PG and a solid stretch 4.
    Reggie Jackson and Monroe sign/trade instead of Jennings sounds pretty good. I like Jackson. He's a big PG who seems to be a good defender. Although, I'm not even sure if this is possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • special1
    replied
    Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Instead of going after the #5 how about this:

    To Detroit:

    KL and PPat

    To Toronto:
    Brandon Jennings, #8 Draft pick and Tolliver
    Maybe if they signed n traded Greg Monroe to us....even then... I dunno if I'd do this. Not sure how Monroe n JV would work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • Jangles
    replied
    I would hope we could do better. At least get Reggie instead of Brandon. Jennings has had 25 good games in his career. We could do better for an upper tier PG and a solid stretch 4.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncle_Si
    replied
    Instead of going after the #5 how about this:

    To Detroit:

    KL and PPat

    To Toronto:
    Brandon Jennings, #8 Draft pick and Tolliver

    Leave a comment:

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