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DeRozan for #5

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  • #46
    special1 wrote: View Post
    Maybe if they signed n traded Greg Monroe to us....even then... I dunno if I'd do this. Not sure how Monroe n JV would work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What if Caldwell-Pope was throw in?

    Just think, with the #8 you're looking at Porzingis, Hezonija or Winslowe
    Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
    Because its 2015

    Comment


    • #47
      special1 wrote: View Post
      Reggie Jackson and Monroe sign/trade instead of Jennings sounds pretty good. I like Jackson. He's a big PG who seems to be a good defender. Although, I'm not even sure if this is possible.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Not sure how I feel about Monroe. I'd love Jackson, KCP and #8 but I suspect the Pistons wouldn't bite.

      Comment


      • #48
        The Ben Gordon signing by Orlando had a non guaranteed second year for $4.5 million - meaning they can flip him to a cap crunched team this summer that will waive him immediately for the relief. Sort of like what Masai did with John Salmons contract last summer - which turned out to be a pretty good asset (landed Lou Will and Bebe in return for it).

        On the court it was not a good move as Gordon has been bad for years but it was a pretty good way to utilize some extra cap space in a year where they didn't really plan on being competitive anyway.

        Comment


        • #49
          Anyone that thinks Orlando would want anything to do with Derozan is out of their mind. They've got two perimeter guys who are bad shooters, and Harris isn't terrific. Adding Derozan to that would be flat out stupid and giving up the 5 for him might be the worst trade of the last 5 years.

          mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          Or if this appears to be highway robbery, which it probably is, maybe Toronto eats Channing Frye's contract in which case Frye, Harkless, Nicholson, #5 for Vasquez, PP, Ross goes through straight forward.
          I think this is more plausible but also with our 20 going the other way. Orlando would still want to add something by way of young guys.

          Orlando Depth Chart:

          Payton/Vasquez/Ridnour
          Dipo/Ross
          Harris/Fournier
          PPat/A. Gordon
          Vuc/O'quinn(assuming they resign him)/Dedmon

          +#20 Pick

          This doesn't look bad at all and gives them plenty of shooting off the bench and a proper stretch 4 next to Vuc.

          They clear Frye off their books for the 2016 offseason. And if they wanted I'd be fine with switching Harkless or Nicholson for Dedmon.

          Not to mention whatever they flip Gordon for. Which by the way was a fantastic way for them to use their cap space, they signed a great asset and didn't have to compromise the fact that they were tanking. If you think that was a bad deal you must not know much about the cap to be honest.

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          • #50
            Fully wrote: View Post
            The Ben Gordon signing by Orlando had a non guaranteed second year for $4.5 million - meaning they can flip him to a cap crunched team this summer that will waive him immediately for the relief. Sort of like what Masai did with John Salmons contract last summer - which turned out to be a pretty good asset (landed Lou Will and Bebe in return for it).

            On the court it was not a good move as Gordon has been bad for years but it was a pretty good way to utilize some extra cap space in a year where they didn't really plan on being competitive anyway.
            Right, but if you're just looking for some kind of cap-related move, you still don't want to sign someone who could be a "locker room cancer" risk. Part of the point with such moves is that while you may not really get return on the court, at least you could add a positive presence to the roster off the court.

            There are very good reasons for the type of move it was, but I can't support any move with that type of risk, especially on a young team lacking solid leadership.

            So getting back to the original point, Orlando's front office might just be stupid enough to convince themselves they need someone like DeMar. It wouldn't be a perfect fit, but there are enough positives. I mean...Ben Gordon signing...Jacque Vaughn as a coach...Giving Channing Frye a 4/32M deal*.....These are not things that scream competent management. I think they've done a decent job picking out their young talent, but haven't really done well in other facets.

            *Before the "but he's a stretch 4 and those are valuable" comments start, Frye is far too slow to guard 4s, and too soft for 5s, and doesn't really contribute anything at a decent level beyond shooting. He's not even a good rebounder. He's a taller Novak with a worse shot at this point. It was a kneejerk reaction to missing out on 2Pat, and feeling they needed to sign a known stretch big to save face.

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            • #51
              Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
              Anyone that thinks Orlando would want anything to do with Derozan is out of their mind. They've got two perimeter guys who are bad shooters, and Harris isn't terrific. Adding Derozan to that would be flat out stupid and giving up the 5 for him might be the worst trade of the last 5 years.



              I think this is more plausible but also with our 20 going the other way. Orlando would still want to add something by way of young guys.

              Orlando Depth Chart:

              Payton/Vasquez/Ridnour
              Dipo/Ross
              Harris/Fournier
              PPat/A. Gordon
              Vuc/O'quinn(assuming they resign him)/Dedmon

              +#20 Pick

              This doesn't look bad at all and gives them plenty of shooting off the bench and a proper stretch 4 next to Vuc.

              They clear Frye off their books for the 2016 offseason. And if they wanted I'd be fine with switching Harkless or Nicholson for Dedmon.

              Not to mention whatever they flip Gordon for. Which by the way was a fantastic way for them to use their cap space, they signed a great asset and didn't have to compromise the fact that they were tanking. If you think that was a bad deal you must not know much about the cap to be honest.
              This is clearly a shot at me, but this is a dramatic overstatement. He could only be filler. They didn't need to reach the floor (you can go into a season below the cap floor). He doesn't offer any positives in terms of intangibles/leadership you want from a veteran. And since he can only be filler (or now some random non-guaranteed piece to try and get a probably minimal asset back), if you don't use him it was a completely pointless move that couldn't really bring positives on or off the court, and was a risk to do damage in the development of a young core. I wouldn't want Gordon around young guys like Oladipo and Payton. He's one of the last guys I'd want to risk allowing to influence my young guys.

              **To put it like...I think it's good ol moderator 'thead' who says it...a strict no-knucklehead policy is what it's all about. You want a cap-oriented move? Sure there could've been tons of options without that knucklehead risk associated to them.

              ---

              But back on why Orlando might be a team you could convince into taking DeMar....They badly need a perimeter scorer, and it looks unclear (at best) if Harris is who they want to keep their long-term. And he'd be less of a spacing nightmare for them than he would for many teams. They could actually put two stretch bigs on the floor next to him (Vuc and Frye). It would be unorthodox, that's for sure. But they really do need an upgrade of some kind in terms of a scorer on the perimeter.
              **Oh, and to put things in perspective, if he, say, started next to Payton, Fournier, Frye and Vuc, they'd have better floor spacing than the 49-win team he just started on here in Toronto. Fournier (.378) and Frye (.393) are both good shooters, and while Vuc doesn't take many 3s, he's an elite shooter in the mid-range (.471 from 10-16, .468 16-23).
              Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun May 31st, 2015, 06:40 PM.

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              • #52
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                This is clearly a shot at me, but this is a dramatic overstatement. He could only be filler. They didn't need to reach the floor (you can go into a season below the cap floor). He doesn't offer any positives in terms of intangibles/leadership you want from a veteran. And since he can only be filler (or now some random non-guaranteed piece to try and get a probably minimal asset back), if you don't use him it was a completely pointless move that couldn't really bring positives on or off the court, and was a risk to do damage in the development of a young core. I wouldn't want Gordon around young guys like Oladipo and Payton. He's one of the last guys I'd want to risk allowing to influence my young guys.

                ---

                But back on why Orlando might be a team you could convince into taking DeMar....They badly need a perimeter scorer, and it looks unclear (at best) if Harris is who they want to keep their long-term. And he'd be less of a spacing nightmare for them than he would for many teams. They could actually put two stretch bigs on the floor next to him (Vuc and Frye). It would be unorthodox, that's for sure. But they really do need an upgrade of some kind in terms of a scorer on the perimeter.
                Not really a shot at you but take it how you like. But to say he could only be filler and bring back a "minimal asset" is being blind to the fact he's in the exact same position as Salmons was last year. If you haven't been around for the last year, that happened to net us the #16th pick of a draft that happened a year prior to the trade (who hadn't even been given the chance to play in the NBA) and the eventual 6th man of the year. Yes, Lou Will over performed but he was still an asset and quite frankly getting Bebe alone would be winning that trade.

                And you said Demar would be less of a spacing nightmare than he would be for a lot of teams but honestly I couldn't name a single team he would fit more poorly in. He can't guard 3's and we've witnessed that first hand, he can't shoot, and the ball sticks in his hand. All three are poor fits with Orlando as they already have a clear cut starting SG, they have no shooting from their backcourt and no team in the NBA can afford to have one 3 point shooter in their starting 5 and between him and Harris, they would have the most stagnant offense in the league. I'm genuinely curious to see who you think would be a worse fit for Demar spacing wise.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
                  Not really a shot at you but take it how you like. But to say he could only be filler and bring back a "minimal asset" is being blind to the fact he's in the exact same position as Salmons was last year. If you haven't been around for the last year, that happened to net us the #16th pick of a draft that happened a year prior to the trade (who hadn't even been given the chance to play in the NBA) and the eventual 6th man of the year. Yes, Lou Will over performed but he was still an asset and quite frankly getting Bebe alone would be winning that trade.

                  And you said Demar would be less of a spacing nightmare than he would be for a lot of teams but honestly I couldn't name a single team he would fit more poorly in. He can't guard 3's and we've witnessed that first hand, he can't shoot, and the ball sticks in his hand. All three are poor fits with Orlando as they already have a clear cut starting SG, they have no shooting from their backcourt and no team in the NBA can afford to have one 3 point shooter in their starting 5 and between him and Harris, they would have the most stagnant offense in the league. I'm genuinely curious to see who you think would be a worse fit for Demar spacing wise.
                  Re read my post with the edits...

                  The whole "no knucklehead" thing pre-empts any random possibilities from having a non-guaranteed contract to deal with.

                  And also re-read the bit I added with DeMar. Also they do not have a clear-cut starting SG. Is it Oladipo? That's an undersized starting backcourt. And Fournier started a good chunk of games last year too. Also if they are starting Fournier and DeMar, they have decent size (compared to starting Oladipo), and Fournier does give shooting. Meanwhile the 6th man role may actually be the ideal one for undersized combo guard like Oladipo.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Just saw your edits which are not helping your case whatsoever.

                    1. Not many free agents would have wanted to sign to a partially guaranteed deal on a bad team unless they aren't going to get any other offers at all. So yeah I guess they could have signed Mike James. But it's a good deal regardless because of the asset he's become.

                    2. Great job skewing your numbers by moving Fournier to the starting lineup. That wouldn't happen in a million years because Oladipo has that one stamped in. Their most likely starting 5 would be Payton/Dipo/Demar/Vuc and Frye/Harris.

                    So 26.2%/33.9%/28.4%/33.3% and one of 39.3%/36.4%.

                    However, putting Frye in means you've got your entire frontcourt which is flat out bad defensively (and like you just mentioned Frye is useless other than his ability to shoot three's, he's a worse version of Novak).

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                    • #55
                      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Re read my post with the edits...

                      The whole "no knucklehead" thing pre-empts any random possibilities from having a non-guaranteed contract to deal with.

                      And also re-read the bit I added with DeMar. Also they do not have a clear-cut starting SG. Is it Oladipo? That's an undersized starting backcourt. And Fournier started a good chunk of games last year too. Also if they are starting Fournier and DeMar, they have decent size (compared to starting Oladipo), and Fournier does give shooting. Meanwhile the 6th man role may actually be the ideal one for undersized combo guard like Oladipo.
                      Wow. I'm ending this argument if you really think there's any chance Orlando moves Dipo to the bench to make way for Derozan. And yes Fournier started some games, either because Dipo was injured or when it was early and they didn't want Payton starting yet.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
                        Just saw your edits which are not helping your case whatsoever.

                        1. Not many free agents would have wanted to sign to a partially guaranteed deal on a bad team unless they aren't going to get any other offers at all. So yeah I guess they could have signed Mike James. But it's a good deal regardless because of the asset he's become.

                        2. Great job skewing your numbers by moving Fournier to the starting lineup. That wouldn't happen in a million years because Oladipo has that one stamped in. Their most likely starting 5 would be Payton/Dipo/Demar/Vuc and Frye/Harris.

                        So 26.2%/33.9%/28.4%/33.3% and one of 39.3%/36.4%.

                        However, putting Frye in means you've got your entire frontcourt which is flat out bad defensively (and like you just mentioned Frye is useless other than his ability to shoot three's, he's a worse version of Novak).
                        Fournier started 32 of 58 games he appeared in last year. So over half his games. And yes, Oladipo started all but one he dressed for. But with Skiles coaching, anything is possible because he'll try to find lineups that work well together instead of starting spots being given out based on draft position entitlement. He's a tactically minded, stubborn coach...as opposed to Jacque Vaughn who basically did nothing for 2 and a half seasons.

                        Oh, and even that "worse" starting lineup has about the same shooting ability as our starting lineup did last year.

                        On the free agent note...the reason guys aren't big on signing partially guaranteed deals is because the only guys open to that are ones trying to salvage their careers. But that's usually a bad sign because they've been enough of a problem to destroy their own careers. It's not like Ben Gordon is washed up. He's just 31. He should be winding down the prime of his career, instead he's just a chess piece. Oh, and he hasn't become much of an asset yet. He only really becomes one if they manage to get something for him.
                        Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun May 31st, 2015, 07:00 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Orlando is really a small market team that has had a lot of home grown talent leave in free agency. DD seems like a loyal guy that they might believe would stay. Small market teams make dumb decisions when it comes to ownership and selling tickets.

                          Milwaukee traded for Redick. Gave away Harris in the process only to not make the playoffs and watch Redick leave in free agency anyway.. turned out to be a terrible waste of an asset and a dumb decision.

                          Orlando however could be on the opposite side of a decision like that.. as there aren't a lot of all-star talents that could be available in a trade, even on a one year deal. They might look at DD and throw analytics out of the window because they believe that an infusion of some talent (even if its not the right kind) could get them over the hump. If shooting is a concern for them then why draft Payton when McBuckets was still available?

                          Personally if I was working for Orlando I'd tell the GM to slam the phone down on Masai if an offer like this was presented.. but sometimes decisions that get made are not good basketball decisions.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            planetmars wrote: View Post
                            Orlando is really a small market team that has had a lot of home grown talent leave in free agency. Small market teams make dumb decisions when it comes to ownership and selling tickets.

                            Milwaukee traded for Redick. Gave away Harris in the process only to not make the playoffs and watch Redick leave in free agency anyway.. turned out to be a terrible waste of an asset and a dumb decision.

                            Orlando however could be on the opposite side of a decision like that.. as there aren't a lot of all-star talents that could be available in a trade, even on a one year deal. They might look at DD and throw analytics out of the window because they believe that an infusion of some talent (even if its not the right kind) could get them over the hump. If shooting is a concern for them then why draft Payton when McBuckets was still available?

                            Personally if I was working for Orlando I'd tell the GM to slam the phone down on Masai if an offer like this was presented.. but sometimes decisions that get made are not good basketball decisions.
                            Or draft Aaron Gordon with a #4 overall pick in a supposedly stacked draft.

                            Thank you for at least acknowledging that teams can make stupid choices. That there are pressures, or simply errors in judgment, that can lead to making a move for whatever reason, even if to objective, outside observers it seems bad.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                              Reminiscent of 2009.....




                              I wonder if Orlando looks at their roster and thinks, "We have a lot of youth and we're going to keep Tobias" so lets add some quality, veteran role players to fill out the roster.


                              Essentially the deal would be: Vasquez, Patterson, Ross for #5, Harkless, Nicholson.

                              Now that trade would be illegal under CBA rules but:

                              1) Vasquez for #5 (absorbed in to $7.1M cap space)
                              2) Patterson for Harkless, Nicholson ($700k cap space plus the $150% + $100K)
                              3) Ross could be traded after July 10th in to Orlando cap space (in fact it could all be done after July 10th quite easily).


                              Very unlikely this happens but Orlando already experienced how hard it is to get free agents last summer (losing out on Patterson) and then found out what happens when you overpay (Frye). They already have a lot of youth - and again if they decide to keep Harris regardless given they are nowhere near the salary floor and the 4-6 year max contract being a starter level salary starting in 2016-17.


                              Or if this appears to be highway robbery, which it probably is, maybe Toronto eats Channing Frye's contract in which case Frye, Harkless, Nicholson, #5 for Vasquez, PP, Ross goes through straight forward.
                              Would love something like that if Masai could pull it off.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                209/623 for Payton/Dipo/DD/Harris/Vuc
                                So 33.5%

                                258/730 for Payton/Dipo/DD/Frye/Vuc
                                So 35.3%

                                321/916 for Lowry/DD/Ross/Amir/JV
                                So 35.0%

                                But again, that Frye lineup is trash defensively, so much so that they could be the best offense in the league (wouldn't even come close) and would still probably be a net negative.

                                And I'm ignoring the fact that Lowry had the worst 3point% season in 5 years, Ross regressed from last year, Harris had by far his best 3point% season ever and Frye had his best 3point% season in 4 years. Law of averages says Lowry and Ross shoot better next year and Frye and Harris both dip.

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