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TimW: Are Raptors Fans too Willing to Settle?

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  • #61
    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not calling for a "boycott" (rather just pointing out that calling someone "not a real fan" because they may choose to).

    Whats 'ridiculous' (besides the lame arguments above justifying the team and/or its direction) is not recognizing that, if one is not happy as a consumer, that they shouldn't be spending on the product or service. You may be content with whats happening here... and thats fine. But others are not. So why would they?
    You, and anyone else, can do whatever you want. No one is forcing you to spend money on the Raptors or watch games. Call yourself a fan or don't. I couldn't care less either way.

    What grates on me is all the whining from posters (not you in particular) like MLSE owes them something. Best two years in franchise history? Irrelevant cause the team has always sucked. MLSE spends millions to build a new facility to benefit its players? Irrelevant cause I don't understand why it matters. MLSE poaches a GM from another team who is recognized as one of the best young GMs around? Irrelevant cause Bryan Colangelo/Denver sucked this year. MLSE gets the All-Star Game into Canada (Something deemed impossible for 20 years)? Irrelevant cause All-Star games are stupid. MLSE buys a D-League team? Irrelevant cause I need to whine and be cynical about everything.

    It seems the only thing that's relevant to a certain group of posters is that management and ownership need to do everything that group wants them to do or else they're taking their ball and going home. The most hilarious thing about it is that nothing has even happened yet. No draft. No free agency. No trades. Yet people are running around here like the sky is falling. It. Is. Ridiculous.

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    • #62
      slaw wrote: View Post
      You, and anyone else, can do whatever you want. No one is forcing you to spend money on the Raptors or watch games. Call yourself a fan or don't. I couldn't care less either way.

      What grates on me is all the whining from posters (not you in particular) like MLSE owes them something. Best two years in franchise history? Irrelevant cause the team has always sucked. MLSE spends millions to build a new facility to benefit its players? Irrelevant cause I don't understand why it matters. MLSE poaches a GM from another team who is recognized as one of the best young GMs around? Irrelevant cause Bryan Colangelo/Denver sucked this year. MLSE gets the All-Star Game into Canada (Something deemed impossible for 20 years)? Irrelevant cause All-Star games are stupid. MLSE buys a D-League team? Irrelevant cause I need to whine and be cynical about everything.

      It seems the only thing that's relevant to a certain group of posters is that management and ownership need to do everything that group wants them to do or else they're taking their ball and going home. The most hilarious thing about it is that nothing has even happened yet. No draft. No free agency. No trades. Yet people are running around here like the sky is falling. It. Is. Ridiculous.
      I'm going to ignore your high school retorts to your unjustified points... and I'll get right to the meat of this.

      Yes, a customer should 'take their ball and go home' instead of buying a product they don't want. That is how the relationship between a customer and a business works. Its exactly what you do every time you don't buy a product and a service.

      Ironic though that you get grated by 'whining' then proceed to spend your time whining about what you claim is 'whining'....

      Comment


      • #63
        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm not calling for a "boycott" (rather just pointing out that calling someone "not a real fan" because they may choose to).

        That said:

        1) Two most successful seasons in franchise history is not only ridiculously low bar given how terrible the east and atlantic are, but also based on the lack of success so far. I don't even know how at this point in time the teams so called "success" over the last two years is even given merit as meaning anything other than an insult to this team and its history.

        2) Raptors payed more for Colangelo.. if paying a GM matters then the Raptors down graded on a $ basis.

        3) all star game? So what? Does the league give a team some sort of advantage for holding the all star game? Does holding the allstar game cause players to play better or win more games?

        4) state of the art facility? Does that win a team games?

        5) D-league team... its the D-league..... # of (former) D-league players who contribute meaningfully to an NBA franchise? Maybe a handful? This is just a Colangelo-esq red herring by TL, Masai and MLSE to give fans false hope in an event with marginal benefit.

        Whats 'ridiculous' (besides the lame arguments above justifying the team and/or its direction) is not recognizing that, if one is not happy as a consumer, that they shouldn't be spending on the product or service. You may be content with whats happening here... and thats fine. But others are not. So why would they?
        The ironic thing is that I've seen the fandom of pro-rebuild folks questioned, and now we're seeing the fandom questioned of those folks that are happy/content or settling for the status quo (which is franchise-best results, for better or worse). There are many ways to build a winner and I don't think having a preference for a specific team-building strategy makes you any more or less of a fan.

        I enjoy a lively, passionate debate, but I don't for a second think there are posters on RR that aren't 'real' fans of the Raptors... even the ones who don't agree with me.

        Pro tank? Fan.
        Pro rebuild? Fan.
        Pro retool? Fan.
        Pro keep the team together for another kick at the can? Fan.
        Pro build through the draft? Fan.
        Pro build through free agency? Fan.
        Pro build through trade? Fan.
        Pro dismantle the current core? Fan.
        Pro keep the current core? Fan.
        Pro keep DC? Fan.
        Pro fire DC? Fan.
        Pro keep MU? Fan.
        Pro fire DC? Fan.
        Pro purple dino uniforms? Fan.
        Pro gold Drake uniforms? Fan.
        Pro Huskeys or another new name? Fan.
        Pro compete now for continued success? Fan.
        Pro step back now for perceived higher ceiling a few years down the road? Fan.

        Everybody who supports this team and is passionate enough to browse/post on RR ultimately wants the same thing - an NBA championship for the Raptors. If we all have the same destination in mind, how does following a different route to get there make you any less of a fan?

        Resorting to calling somebody a fake fan is childish and nothing but trolling.

        Comment


        • #64
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          The ironic thing is that I've seen the fandom of pro-rebuild folks questioned, and now we're seeing the fandom questioned of those folks that are happy/content or settling for the status quo (which is franchise-best results, for better or worse). There are many ways to build a winner and I don't think having a preference for a specific team-building strategy makes you any more or less of a fan.

          .......

          Everybody who supports this team and is passionate enough to browse/post on RR ultimately wants the same thing - an NBA championship for the Raptors. If we all have the same destination in mind, how does following a different route to get there make you any less of a fan?

          Resorting to calling somebody a fake fan is childish and nothing but trolling.
          Absolutely agree.

          Which is why the idea of willingly 'boycotting' the team is not only a statement that one is a "fan", its going a step further and being an active particpant (albeit very marginally and indirectly, at an individual level anyways) in driving the direction of the team in the way every consumer can.

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          • #65
            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            Absolutely agree.

            Which is why the idea of willingly 'boycotting' the team is not only a statement that one is a "fan", its going a step further and being an active particpant (albeit very marginally and indirectly, at an individual level anyways) in driving the direction of the team in the way every consumer can.
            Or, as has been pointed out, an active participant in driving the team out of town ala Expos and Grizzlies.

            Comment


            • #66
              Joey wrote: View Post
              Or, as has been pointed out, an active participant in driving the team out of town ala Expos and Grizzlies.
              Thats just a false equivalency. Raptors aren't in the same situation the Expos or Grizzlies were, on numerous different levels. Nor where those teams driven out because fans "boycotted" the team.

              Besides which, if the team is so hard up to do anything that fans can get behind that a boycott lasts indefinitely (and as such actually drives the team out), it begs to reason then that the team being driven out of town would have been inevitable at some point anyways.

              Comment


              • #67
                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                Thats just a false equivalency. Raptors aren't in the same situation the Expos or Grizzlies were, on numerous different levels. Nor where those teams driven out because fans "boycotted" the team.

                Besides which, if the team is so hard up to do anything that fans can get behind that a boycott lasts indefinitely (and as such actually drives the team out), it begs to reason then that the team being driven out of town would have been inevitable at some point anyways.
                I don't know why you keep putting quotes around "boycott", as it's precisely what is being advocated for.
                I just don't see it having any sort of positive impact on the franchise whatsoever.

                I think there are far more positive ways for fans to communicate their desires for the team. Heck, get 10 guys and buy a pair of season seats and you can talk to Masai yourself.
                Last edited by Joey; Tue Jun 9th, 2015, 07:00 PM.

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                • #68
                  Joey wrote: View Post
                  I don't know why you keep putting quotes around "boycott", as it's precisely what is being advocated for.
                  I just don't see it having any sort of positive impact on the franchise whatsoever.

                  I think there are far more positive ways for fans to communicate their desires for the team. Heck, get 10 guys and buy a pair of season seats and you can talk to Masai yourself.
                  $s drive business --> stop given business $s they'll need to change how they do business --> continue to pay for the same product/service, said business will continue with the status quo. Its called dollar voting.

                  If one is unhappy with the team, I'd argue buying season seats is one of the least beneficial thing you can do. Yes perhaps you could talk to Masai directly. Talk, complain, bitch, throw a fit, debate, discuss, play euchre over a few drinks, anything and all those things.... but you still said "I like your product enough to buy it" when you went and bought those tickets.

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                  • #69
                    TimW: Are Raptors Fans too Willing to Settle?

                    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                    $s drive business --> stop given business $s they'll need to change how they do business --> continue to pay for the same product/service, said business will continue with the status quo. Its called dollar voting.

                    If one is unhappy with the team, I'd argue buying season seats is one of the least beneficial thing you can do. Yes perhaps you could talk to Masai directly. Talk, complain, bitch, throw a fit, debate, discuss, play euchre over a few drinks, anything and all those things.... but you still said "I like your product enough to buy it" when you went and bought those tickets.
                    Disagree, to me you are saying you SUPPORT the team, and as an avid supporter, and a person who contributes money to the bottom line, you would like to communicate your displeasure directly the GM of the team.
                    Because really, it's the casual fans and season ticket holders (corporations mostly) that truly make any difference to the bottom line and they are generally pleased and impressed with 49 wins unfortunately.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      The ironic thing is that I've seen the fandom of pro-rebuild folks questioned, and now we're seeing the fandom questioned of those folks that are happy/content or settling for the status quo (which is franchise-best results, for better or worse). There are many ways to build a winner and I don't think having a preference for a specific team-building strategy makes you any more or less of a fan.

                      I enjoy a lively, passionate debate, but I don't for a second think there are posters on RR that aren't 'real' fans of the Raptors... even the ones who don't agree with me.

                      Pro tank? Fan.
                      Pro rebuild? Fan.
                      Pro retool? Fan.
                      Pro keep the team together for another kick at the can? Fan.
                      Pro build through the draft? Fan.
                      Pro build through free agency? Fan.
                      Pro build through trade? Fan.
                      Pro dismantle the current core? Fan.
                      Pro keep the current core? Fan.
                      Pro keep DC? Fan.
                      Pro fire DC? Fan.
                      Pro keep MU? Fan.
                      Pro fire DC? Fan.
                      Pro purple dino uniforms? Fan.
                      Pro gold Drake uniforms? Fan.
                      Pro Huskeys or another new name? Fan.
                      Pro compete now for continued success? Fan.
                      Pro step back now for perceived higher ceiling a few years down the road? Fan.

                      Everybody who supports this team and is passionate enough to browse/post on RR ultimately wants the same thing - an NBA championship for the Raptors. If we all have the same destination in mind, how does following a different route to get there make you any less of a fan?

                      Resorting to calling somebody a fake fan is childish and nothing but trolling.
                      Sticky this in the forum rules

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        The ironic thing is that I've seen the fandom of pro-rebuild folks questioned, and now we're seeing the fandom questioned of those folks that are happy/content or settling for the status quo (which is franchise-best results, for better or worse). There are many ways to build a winner and I don't think having a preference for a specific team-building strategy makes you any more or less of a fan.

                        I enjoy a lively, passionate debate, but I don't for a second think there are posters on RR that aren't 'real' fans of the Raptors... even the ones who don't agree with me.

                        Pro tank? Fan.
                        Pro rebuild? Fan.
                        Pro retool? Fan.
                        Pro keep the team together for another kick at the can? Fan.
                        Pro build through the draft? Fan.
                        Pro build through free agency? Fan.
                        Pro build through trade? Fan.
                        Pro dismantle the current core? Fan.
                        Pro keep the current core? Fan.
                        Pro keep DC? Fan.
                        Pro fire DC? Fan.
                        Pro keep MU? Fan.
                        Pro fire DC? Fan.
                        Pro purple dino uniforms? Fan.
                        Pro gold Drake uniforms? Fan.
                        Pro Huskeys or another new name? Fan.
                        Pro compete now for continued success? Fan.
                        Pro step back now for perceived higher ceiling a few years down the road? Fan.

                        Everybody who supports this team and is passionate enough to browse/post on RR ultimately wants the same thing - an NBA championship for the Raptors. If we all have the same destination in mind, how does following a different route to get there make you any less of a fan?

                        Resorting to calling somebody a fake fan is childish and nothing but trolling.
                        You've had a couple good perspective posts the last few days.

                        Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Joey wrote: View Post
                          Disagree, to me you are saying you SUPPORT the team, and as an avid supporter, and a person who contributes money to the bottom line, you would like to communicate your displeasure directly the GM of the team.
                          Because really, it's the casual fans and season ticket holders (corporations mostly) that truly make any difference to the bottom line and they are generally pleased and impressed with 49 wins unfortunately.
                          But you are communicating your displeasure by not buying those tickets, and it is also giving the team an incentive to change. By buying tickets though, you aren't given them incentive... rather you are disincentivizing change.

                          Lets just follow this thought process through though. I'll go right back to my initial analogy but adapt it slightly to this discussion. If you bought Oreos and found shards of glass in them... went to CEO of Nabisco and complained. Bought another box of Oreos and found shards of glass in them, would you continue the same process (buy and complain, buy then complain etc) until the day you didn't find shards of glass in those Oreos? What if a year down the road there are still shards of glass in those oreos? Buy them still?

                          Or would you stop buying Oreos until you knew they no longer contained glass shards?

                          Why would we treat a sports franchise, which is selling product (service), which is in the business of making money, differently?

                          If you care, the wiki entry on dollar voting:

                          The term dollar voting is an analogy which purports to characterize the process of economic resource allocation through the relative sums of money spent on various goods and services.

                          Consumers are said to vote for the products on which they spend their dollars. In Principles of Economics courses, this is used to describe the process by which firms decide the products that they produce. Products that consumers buy will drive future production choices. Products that do not sell as well as expected will receive fewer productive resources in the future. Effectively, consumers are voting for "winners" and "losers" with their purchases. This is used as a fundamental argument in favor of market allocation of goods and services as consumer sovereignty is said to determine future investment and production choices.

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                          • #73
                            You lost me at Oreo's ... LOL

                            But seriously, we'll just agree to disagree on this one, because I really do disagree with what you are saying. I understand the concept of dollar voting, but again, don't believe it would ever be effective with a Sports franchise.


                            Edit: I went looking for funny Oreo pictures and found this:
                            ... Can't say I'll ever eat another Oreo ... without checking ... thanks GarbageTime!
                            Last edited by Joey; Tue Jun 9th, 2015, 09:15 PM.

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                            • #74
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              ...Pro purple dino uniforms? Fan...
                              Going a bit too far there, CalgaryRapsFan!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Pro custard? Flan.
                                It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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