Everything Norman Powell

[Mess]

I wouldn't except you to understand. This matter has nothing to do with number/advance stats. Powell wants to be really good. You can tell that. Ross is OK with being adequate. Nothing wrong with that. I just like players that want to be best. Powell got some DD in him. Glad DD taking him under his wing.

I'm surprised you can tell anything about Ross, especially that he's ok with being adequate. Is that cause he yawned that one time? Or does his lack of expression allow you to make assumptions that no one can argue one way or he other?

Anyway, I trust this guy a bit more than anyone who solely watches the Raptor games. (and I know this isn't the Ross thread - apologies).

Watched Terrence Ross workout this summer. Jeez man. A REAL talent. And following the work ethic of vets like DeMar and Amir. Look out.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) July 3, 2014

And with the added bonus that he also sees what we all see during the games.

T-Ross reaches his potential and I don't know how you stop the Raptors.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 8, 2014

I watched T-Ross work out a few times this summer and was blow away. He just has to mature a little mentally. Has sick game.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 8, 2014

I have not seen many players recently look better in workouts than T-Ross. Jaw dropping talent. Gotta get the mental part there. Space cadet

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) April 26, 2015

I'm not over exaggerating about Ross either. Mind was blown when I saw him workout this summer. And I see a ton of guys workout

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) April 26, 2015

So T-Ross is gonna come off the bench this year? Dude is one of the most talented I've seen in workouts. Space cadet at times though.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) October 5, 2015

T-Ross still looks lost at times.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 4, 2015

Anyway, this is likely a textbook case of confirmation bias but I think it at least partly refutes that Ross doesn't work hard....but hold that All Star weekend "holiday" against him if you want to.

[GLF]

So... let me get this straight. When we have a great offensive game without DeMar, it's because it's 'just the bucks' and it doesn't mean anything because it's one game sample size.

But, when Powell has his best game as a pro, 6/15 from the floor for 17 points, he's an elite offensive talent that immediately means he's better than Ross?

I like Powell, but how about some perspective here guys.

I'm not. I've been saying Powell would be better than Ross in no time if he develops a consistent 3 point shot even before this game. He isn't right now but I believe he will be. To me their is nothing Ross does better than Powell right now other than shoot the 3. Powell to me is a much more disciplined defender and much more physical than Ross. Ross also doesn't have the greatest IQ so he doesn't even have that over Powell. Powell is quicker than him and just as athletic if not more given he's shorter. Powell is also stronger, has a better wingspan, and a better handle. He's also shown glimpses of being someone who can get into the lane and create for others. This isn't a trade Ross because Powell is looking like he's going to be better than Ross with time. I'd love to have both of them on our team because they bring something different to the game. And right now Ross is the better player. I'm just saying with time I think Powell will be better than Ross and it's not just because of this game and if we HAD to trade Ross to get an elite player or something I wouldn't feel as bad because I'm pretty comfortable with Powell for the future. That's all. Doesn't mean Ross is a shit player that I would just give up for peanuts. He's a good player.

[Chr1s1anL]

There's a few guys around here that should take breaks from basketball to talk to women once in awhile too

Lol believe me. Talking to women isn't an issue for me.

[LJ2]

Not sure why it always has to be a player vs. player debate in Raptorland. Both Ross and Powell can be contributors on a good team in different ways and, for now, Powell is a really nice deep rotation player who can backfill for an injured Carroll along with JJ. It's a great situation for Toronto. Who knows what the offseason will bring in terms of player movement? Even if both Ross and Powell are back, JJ won't be and there will be a role for Powell if he can seize it.

Both players have pros and cons but I don't see the need to denigrate one to build up the other.

But that is what the debate is about. Why not give Powell more of Ross' minutes if he is the better player. I haven't really seen enough of Powell to give an opinion of whom I think is better. But I think it's a great debate.

[slaw]

There's a few guys around here that should take breaks from basketball to talk to women once in awhile too

Aw man, don't I talk to my wife enough already? Jesus Christ.

[tDotted]

I can see Powell turning into an Iguodala-type player in his prime. That's still great for a 2nd round pick.

[Barolt]

I'm not. I've been saying Powell would be better than Ross in no time if he develops a consistent 3 point shot even before this game. He isn't right now but I believe he will be. To me their is nothing Ross does better than Powell right now other than shoot the 3. Powell to me is a much more disciplined defender and much more physical than Ross. Ross also doesn't have the greatest IQ so he doesn't even have that over Powell. Powell is quicker than him and just as athletic if not more given he's shorter. Powell is also stronger, has a better wingspan, and a better handle. He's also shown glimpses of being someone who can get into the lane and create for others. This isn't a trade Ross because Powell is looking like he's going to be better than Ross with time. I'd love to have both of them on our team because they bring something different to the game. And right now Ross is the better player. I'm just saying with time I think Powell will be better than Ross and it's not just because of this game and if we HAD to trade Ross to get an elite player or something I wouldn't feel as bad because I'm pretty comfortable with Powell for the future. That's all. Doesn't mean Ross is a shit player that I would just give up for peanuts. He's a good player.

The thing is, Ross' three point shot is an elite skill. We're talking about Powell, currently shooting 24.1% from 3, and 2/11 from above the break, and who in four years in college only took 354 3s from the shorter college line and only hit 31.4% of them, getting to the level of Ross, who has taken 272 three point attempts this season and hit them at a 39.3% rate, with only 28.7% of those attempts being from the corners.

That's a massive gap.

[LJ2]

I'm surprised you can tell anything about Ross, especially that he's ok with being adequate. Is that cause he yawned that one time? Or does his lack of expression allow you to make assumptions that no one can argue one way or he other?

Anyway, I trust this guy a bit more than anyone who solely watches the Raptor games. (and I know this isn't the Ross thread - apologies).

Watched Terrence Ross workout this summer. Jeez man. A REAL talent. And following the work ethic of vets like DeMar and Amir. Look out.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) July 3, 2014

And with the added bonus that he also sees what we all see during the games.

T-Ross reaches his potential and I don't know how you stop the Raptors.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 8, 2014

I watched T-Ross work out a few times this summer and was blow away. He just has to mature a little mentally. Has sick game.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 8, 2014

I have not seen many players recently look better in workouts than T-Ross. Jaw dropping talent. Gotta get the mental part there. Space cadet

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) April 26, 2015

I'm not over exaggerating about Ross either. Mind was blown when I saw him workout this summer. And I see a ton of guys workout

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) April 26, 2015

So T-Ross is gonna come off the bench this year? Dude is one of the most talented I've seen in workouts. Space cadet at times though.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) October 5, 2015

T-Ross still looks lost at times.

— Nate Jones (@JonesOnTheNBA) November 4, 2015

Anyway, this is likely a textbook case of confirmation bias but I think it at least partly refutes that Ross doesn't work hard....but hold that All Star weekend "holiday" against him if you want to.

It's what we've all seen about Ross. The talent is there in abundance, but the drive, focus, mentality to win/be the best is missing. A lot of Bargnani comparisons can be made.

[Chr1s1anL]

That's rich. I don't have a horse in this Amber Rose/Ross race, but you really should take a look at yourself in the mirror and see the same issue with the way you employ stats to support your own personal biases... It's human nature, so it's not even really a criticism, but let's try to be realistic here. Most people using stats on this forum to support an argument are not seeing the full picture and seem to have a pretty high degree of self-confidence about their "expertise" with analytics. Confirmation bias and overconfidence = rampant, and don't exactly contribute to rational discussion.

I mean, I actually believe that there are at least a few people posting here regularly who really, truly believe they could coach and/or GM this team better than Casey and Ujiri, starting tomorrow, with no background or experience, based on some combination of watching basketball on TV and/or playing amateur basketball at some minor level. And that's just delusional. You've got to have some sense of knowing what you don't know, and that seems to be lacking with a lot of folks...

+1,000,000

[LJ2]

I can see Powell turning into an Iguodala-type player in his prime. That's still great for a 2nd round pick.

I didn't see yesterday's game and I think that has given me more perspective on Powell because after one good game I'm hearing comparisons of Powell to Arenas, Monta, Westbrook and Igoudala. It's like when we have a bad loss and the forum goes nuts like our season just ended. We tend to swing wildly from game to game around here.

[Barolt]

That's rich. I don't have a horse in this Amber Rose/Ross race, but you really should take a look at yourself in the mirror and see the same issue with the way you employ stats to support your own personal biases... It's human nature, so it's not even really a criticism, but let's try to be realistic here. Most people using stats on this forum to support an argument are not seeing the full picture and seem to have a pretty high degree of self-confidence about their "expertise" with analytics. Confirmation bias and overconfidence = rampant, and don't exactly contribute to rational discussion.

I mean, I actually believe that there are at least a few people posting here regularly who really, truly believe they could coach and/or GM this team better than Casey and Ujiri, starting tomorrow, with no background or experience, based on some combination of watching basketball on TV and/or playing amateur basketball at some minor level. And that's just delusional. You've got to have some sense of knowing what you don't know, and that seems to be lacking with a lot of folks...

Of course, the nature of statistics is that they shouldn't be used to change your mind, but reinforce what you already know. At the same time, you shouldn't throw out statistics simply because you disagree with them.

I don't think I could run the team better than Casey or Ujiri, but that doesn't make them infallible either.

[MACK11]

For all those doubting Masai's drafting.......

[Cody73]

Norman to me is really grown in such a short time.

I hope Carroll hooks him up with whoever helped Carroll develop his shot.... as it seems he's got the form down, he just needs to have more confidence in it.

But I'm really enjoying Norm as a small-ball SF. It's a secret weapon that only we have! ^~^

[white men can't jump]

I can see Powell turning into an Iguodala-type player in his prime. That's still great for a 2nd round pick.

That would be great for any pick, not just a 2nd rounder. If you got an Iguodala type with the 5th pick that would be fantastic. Not sure I see that kind of player in Powell though. Iggy's bigger, so that already gives him a leg up especially as a versatile multi-position player on both ends. And Powell would have to really come on strong as a facilitator, which Iggy is great at for a wing but the jury's still very much out on Powell, who hasn't shown that level of creativity but has shown flashes of making smart passes.

---

Someone mentioned Avery Bradley earlier. People have also mentioned Tony Allen before. In the best case, I think you're probably looking at a better version of such players (at least in terms of a likely outcome). He's bigger and more athletic than Bradley. He has more offensive upside than Allen (might already be a better offensive player than him). If he's a guy who can defend both backcourt spots, shoot the 3 well enough (say 36%+) and brings high energy play to both ends, I'd be thrilled with that.

[Barolt]

I think the best comp for me is probably Powell being a higher IQ James Johnson, being honest. Good driving to the basket, decent enough at corner 3s, hard worker on defense.