Amir or Lou? Who do you want back?

[Jangles]

I think someone will be willing to pay Amir 7-9 mill per year. He's gotta walk in that situation. Lou is a high volume, inefficient, no defence 6th man. It's the age of analytics, so I'm surprised about the interest in the guy. He barely shot 40% and he shot 34% from 3.

[JawsGT]

Amir, if we don't find a better replacement, or can't get him at value to backup JV. No to Lou.

[Katman]

If they both want big pay days, then NO!

[Mess]

If they both want big pay days, then NO!

Everybody wants a big pay day. It's more about what other teams would be willing to pay them. I haven't read one single word about a team having interest in Amir...though I guess that's because he's likely every team's fallback plan, not just Toronto's.

[planetmars]

Amir by the way is only 28 years old (and just turned 28 in May). Lou Williams is also 28 years old but turns 29 in October.

Amir may be a vet, but he's a 'young' vet. Dude just needs ankle surgery. Take him to the guy that fixed Curry's ankles.

I'd give him 4 years, and let next year be a year where he just rehabs.

[yabadabayolo]

I think someone will be willing to pay Amir 7-9 mill per year. He's gotta walk in that situation. Lou is a high volume, inefficient, no defence 6th man. It's the age of analytics, so I'm surprised about the interest in the guy. He barely shot 40% and he shot 34% from 3.

Lous defence was pretty good. Wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be and wasn't even the worst on the team last year. He has long arms which help with his tiny ness

[DanH]

Guys, Amir had ankle surgery in 2011. It didn't help for very long at all. It's no quick fix to his issues. The lack of it helping is a big part of why he decided against it last summer, I'm sure.

[JWash]

Need to go after top tier FAs and even 2nd tier FAs before signing either of these two. If I signed Lou I'd only give him a Vasquez deal (1 year + 1 team option). Ditto for Amir.

[raptors999]

better question is right now, whose bird rights do you renounce

[DanH]

better question is right now, whose bird rights do you renounce

I don't understand. Anyone you don't re-sign, you renounce their Bird Rights.

[DanH]

Need to go after top tier FAs and even 2nd tier FAs before signing either of these two. If I signed Lou I'd only give him a Vasquez deal (1 year + 1 team option). Ditto for Amir.

It's complicated. For example, IF you wanted to keep Lou, you'd want his current year salary as low as possible to free up as much cap room to, as you put it, go after top tier FAs. For example, 15.8M for Tobias Harris. That would mean you need to sign Lou to a deal starting at 7.1M. Now, if you want to get him to agree to that, you probably need to go 5 years and have Bird raises, so it works out to 8M per year (40.8M). That might be enough for him to re-sign.

But to do that, you have to have to keep his Bird Rights, which means keeping his cap hold, which is 10.4M. Meaning until you sign him or renounce his rights, we only have about 12M in cap space, not enough to chase Harris or most other RFA's. So, two solutions. First, you renounce his rights. Now you make the 15.8M offer, say Harris signs and Orlando doesn't match. Got him. Now we go back to Lou with our 7.1M and offer him a contract. But without his rights (which we renounced), we can now only offer him a 4 year deal with small raises. Meaning a 30.3M offer (7.6M per year). Lou might well be less open to a 30M offer than a 40M offer. Then he walks, and everyone else you go after knows they are a second thought. Not great.

Second option is to just sign Lou first, to the 5 year deal his Bird Rights allow as described above. This allows his current year salary (7.1M) to replace his cap hold (10.4M) freeing up enough cap room to go after Harris while ensuring that Lou gets the deal he wants.

As for a 1+1 deal for Lou, he and his agent would laugh you off the phone then bad mouth you to every agent and player in the business. He just won 6th man of the year. He'll be getting 4 years from someone. Heck he may get offers above the 7.1 I'm suggesting - but the only way he considers the 7.1 and keeps our cap clear is if he gets term instead.

Plus there is an added bonus to long deals this summer - every year a contract exists under the new 100M cap is another year of increased value. That 40M would essentially be a MLE deal in a couple years - a good value for a bench scorer like Lou.

Again, I'd rather not re-sign him, but if you do, you do it right away and for the amount I've described here to maximize flexibility to chase a real game changer.

[raptors999]

I don't understand. Anyone you don't re-sign, you renounce their Bird Rights.

raptors cap space is being eaten up by their bird rights. cant sign a free agent without renouncing one or both. without GV they have 41.5 commited + Wright + cap holds

[raptors999]

It's complicated. For example, IF you wanted to keep Lou, you'd want his current year salary as low as possible to free up as much cap room to, as you put it, go after top tier FAs. For example, 15.8M for Tobias Harris. That would mean you need to sign Lou to a deal starting at 7.1M. Now, if you want to get him to agree to that, you probably need to go 5 years and have Bird raises, so it works out to 8M per year (40.8M). That might be enough for him to re-sign.

But to do that, you have to have to keep his Bird Rights, which means keeping his cap hold, which is 10.4M. Meaning until you sign him or renounce his rights, we only have about 12M in cap space, not enough to chase Harris or most other RFA's. So, two solutions. First, you renounce his rights. Now you make the 15.8M offer, say Harris signs and Orlando doesn't match. Got him. Now we go back to Lou with our 7.1M and offer him a contract. But without his rights (which we renounced), we can now only offer him a 4 year deal with small raises. Meaning a 30.3M offer (7.6M per year). Lou might well be less open to a 30M offer than a 40M offer. Then he walks, and everyone else you go after knows they are a second thought. Not great.

Second option is to just sign Lou first, to the 5 year deal his Bird Rights allow as described above. This allows his current year salary (7.1M) to replace his cap hold (10.4M) freeing up enough cap room to go after Harris while ensuring that Lou gets the deal he wants.

As for a 1+1 deal for Lou, he and his agent would laugh you off the phone then bad mouth you to every agent and player in the business. He just won 6th man of the year. He'll be getting 4 years from someone. Heck he may get offers above the 7.1 I'm suggesting - but the only way he considers the 7.1 and keeps our cap clear is if he gets term instead.

Plus there is an added bonus to long deals this summer - every year a contract exists under the new 100M cap is another year of increased value. That 40M would essentially be a MLE deal in a couple years - a good value for a bench scorer like Lou.

Again, I'd rather not re-sign him, but if you do, you do it right away and for the amount I've described here to maximize flexibility to chase a real game changer.

If Raptors want Amir too his bird rights may or may not be a factor. Either way the cap holds and bird rights are complicated since both have 10M cap holds and the FA Raptor may be targeting require renouncement

[jacobdr4]

I love Amir as a person. Want nothing to do with him now. And the thought of signing Lou Williams is putting me over the edge.

[DanH]

raptors cap space is being eaten up by their bird rights. cant sign a free agent without renouncing one or both. without GV they have 41.5 commited + Wright + cap holds

Yes, that's my point. The question asked was "who do you keep" and you said a better question is "who do you renounce". It's the same (well, opposite) question. Anyone you re-sign you will not renounce. Anyone you don't sign you will. It is not complicated.

The only question with these things is timing - when you sign who. The question of renouncing or not takes care of itself once you decide who to keep.