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The feeling of seeing Masai Ujiri doing work in comparison to Bryan Colangelo

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  • magoon wrote: View Post
    That having been said, it's clear that Masai is willing to give guys he likes a shot, but he's also not overly sentimental about them. Stone didn't get a re-up after his year. Greivis was traded. Hamilton never made the team. And so forth.

    And that's good. Every exec will have guys they like, and some of those choices will be at least a bit irrational or based on the exec's ideas about what the player would become, and some of them will be entirely correct choices (see: Golden State and Draymond Green, for example). The issue is making sure that those choices, when they're wrong, don't harm the organization in the long run - for example, extending Andrea Bargnani.
    Yeah, he is willing to give them a shot to get a closer look again to see if something he saw before can be brought out and nurtured, I guess. He's not the type, at least so far, to really get sentimental and overly attached to players.

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      And it could even be negative for the exec. Could make it obvious they're making moves for their own job rather than for the good of the team.
      Everyone is making moves for their job. Some people have a bigger window than others. An executive can't tell you you're not living up to expectations and then nail you for making tweaks to try to win more... Not unless he has a personality disorder.

      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      . I'm much happier with a GM who knows how to turn assets with diminishing value into picks, even 2nd rounders, than the other way around. And I'm pretty sure it's better for the team too.
      You're losing context. He had to win right away, he was in trouble and he probably didn't have a lot of support in the org.

      I agree with you but we need to keep in mind what was going on and not just what happened and what that means to us now two years later in hindsight. That's the thing, most of us are backseat drivers treating this like NBA 2K trade center. There is a lot more at play then Player A and draft pick B and we need to understand/consider that if we want to understand the reasoning that went into the pick and come to a better(possibly different) conclusion.

      Sometimes you got to take it on the chin. Sometimes you have to do something you wouldn't do under less stressful circumstances.

      Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

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      • I think Masai is trying to do similar things to Daryl Morey, with a high priority on young asset acquisition, player development & trades. It's the most difficult way to build a team and requires the highest level of GM skill (and luck, of course). Where Masai differs from Morey, IMO, would be in his higher value placed on chemistry and loyalty.

        A good article on Morey and the recent Ty Lawson acquisition....

        http://basketball.realgm.com/analysi...In-Their-Prime

        Morey has been able to walk the fine line of turning his team into a legitimate title contender without ever sinking to the bottom of the standings and accumulating a bunch of high lottery picks. The roster he has assembled is as deep as any in the league with just about everyone in the prime of their career:

        PG: Ty Lawson (27), Patrick Beverley (27)

        SG: James Harden (26), Marcus Thornton (28)

        SF: Trevor Ariza (30), Corey Brewer (29), KJ McDaniels (22), Sam Dekker (21)

        PF: Terrence Jones (24), Donatas Motiejunas (25), Montrezl Harrell (21)

        C: Dwight Howard (30), Clint Capela (22)

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        • Apollo wrote: View Post
          Everyone is making moves for their job. Some people have a bigger window than others. An executive can't tell you you're not living up to expectations and then nail you for making tweaks to try to win more... Not unless he has a personality disorder.



          You're losing context. He had to win right away, he was in trouble and he probably didn't have a lot of support in the org.

          I agree with you but we need to keep in mind what was going on and not just what happened and what that means to us now two years later in hindsight. That's the thing, most of us are backseat drivers treating this like NBA 2K trade center. There is a lot more at play then Player A and draft pick B and when need to understand that if we want to understand the reasoning that went into the pick.

          Sometimes you got to take it on the chin. Sometimes you have to do something you wouldn't do under less stressful circumstances.

          Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
          I think you're the one struggling with context. If you have to win right away, then your move is go out and dump a 2nd rounder for a guy who's very obviously a bad basketball player, you're making moves with the wrong motives. A move that doesn't make your team better (*now or in the future) is a move you should not make. This isn't a hindsight thing. It's about philosophies in team management/building.

          When he traded for Telfair, I was calling it a stupid short-sighted move that probably wouldn't even help us in the short term. I don't think I'm a genius in basketball terms, but Telfair has always been a shit player. Being able to tell he wouldn't help us was not difficult at all. A PG who can't shoot, pass, defend, rebound, control the tempo, is undersized and has a bad attitude? Yeah, that's the missing piece to a playoff run...But he's a former 1st round pick with years of NBA experience, so he's a good acquisition (Colangelo type spin).

          When he signed Turkoglu, I was calling it a stupid move going after exactly the wrong type of player in terms of what the team needed. We needed a versatile, two-way player who didn't need the ball in his hands. We got a one-way selfish player who pouted when he didn't touch the ball enough.

          Colangelo made a lot of moves with the thought of being able to "sell" the move. In this specific example, despite it obviously being a move that would have no impact on wins, he did it because standing pat would look worse despite being actually better. Masai makes moves to try and make the team better, and the sales pitch is secondary because it will take care of itself if you do your job right.

          And you can tell this if you listen to Colangelo talk about moves/players. He's always trying to find ways to talk them up. Brings up draft position or some type of accolade(s). Masai doesn't. He actually plays down a lot of his moves and always cautions against letting expectations spin out of control.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jul 21st, 2015, 12:19 PM.

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          • I think he is doing a lot of on the job learning. He makes mistakes but doesn't waste time correcting them


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            • Just curious - where did the idea that BC didn't have support from management come from? I never saw that as a problem. His tenure was long enough, there weren't really spells where anyone considered his job to be seriously at risk, and in spite of how everyone loved to complain about miserly MLSE the Raps were regularly in the top half of the league for payroll. The main external pressure he faced was to find players to pair with Bosh before losing CB to free agency, imho. Pretty sure he made some comments in hindsight about how that was tough because in the end Bosh wasn't really a #1 guy, which is true. Still, as has been mentioned BC never seemed to leave himself enough flexibility to make a move like Morey adding Howard to Harden or Ainge adding KG and Ray to PP.
              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I think you're the one struggling with context. If you have to win right away, then your move is go out and dump a 2nd rounder for a guy who's very obviously a bad basketball player, you're making moves with the wrong motives. A move that doesn't make your team better is a move you should not make. This isn't a hindsight thing. It's about philosophies in team management/building.
                He was trying to make his team better. It's not a difference in philosophies, its a difference in player analysis. You think he could get more than someone like Telfair for a second round burner? I don't. That doesn't mean I make that trade but then again I don't have a clue what my real options would be so what do I know? I'm not on the conference calls with the league.

                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                When he traded for Telfair, I was calling it a stupid short-sighted move that probably wouldn't even help us in the short term.
                Call it shortsighted, I agree it is and for a very valid reason, but to call it stupid is going overboard. You don't know anything more than you can get from a stats sheet, game clip and a news article but you're going to call him stupid.

                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                Telfair has always been a shit player. Being able to tell he wouldn't help us was not difficult at all. A PG who can't shoot, pass, defend, rebound, control the tempo, is undersized and has a bad attitude? Yeah, that's the missing piece to a playoff run...But he's a former 1st round pick with years of NBA experience, so he's a good acquisition (Colangelo type spin).
                There were a bunch of teams who took a minor risk on him because of his physical gifts and Colangelo was another notch in Telfair's belt. I'm not saying he was a good or bad acquisition, I'm telling you I understand desperate people take desperate measures. To add the Telfair trade to the stack of reasons why you're unimpressed with Colangelo is just as weak as Telfair's game. I'm not writing off an executive who has two executive of the year awards and 19 years of experience as stupid but that's just me. I have respect for him and his entire career and I can look at the total package and not just his missteps in Toronto. What he was pushing in Phoenix and tried to push in Toronto is now becoming trendy and respected as a way to win but he won't get credit for any of that around here.

                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                He's always trying to find ways to talk them up. Brings up draft position or some type of accolade(s). Masai doesn't.
                He does so. He does it a different way is all. You don't get to that level without out being able to market yourself and your moves. Let's not kid ourselves here.

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                • Apollo wrote: View Post
                  He was trying to make his team better. It's not a difference in philosophies, its a difference in player analysis. You think he could get more than someone like Telfair for a second round burner? I don't. That doesn't mean I make that trade but then again I don't have a clue what my real options would be so what do I know? I'm not on the conference calls with the league.



                  Call it shortsighted, I agree it is and for a very valid reason, but to call it stupid is going overboard. You don't know anything more than you can get from a stats sheet, game clip and a news article but you're going to call him stupid.



                  There were a bunch of teams who took a minor risk on him because of his physical gifts and Colangelo was another notch in Telfair's belt. I'm not saying he was a good or bad acquisition, I'm telling you I understand desperate people take desperate measures. To add the Telfair trade to the stack of reasons why you're unimpressed with Colangelo is just as weak as Telfair's game. I'm not writing off an executive who has two executive of the year awards and 19 years of experience as stupid but that's just me. I have respect for him and his entire career and I can look at the total package and not just his missteps in Toronto. What he was pushing in Phoenix and tried to push in Toronto is now becoming trendy and respected as a way to win but he won't get credit for any of that around here.

                  He does so. He does it a different way is all. You don't get to that level without out being able to market yourself and your moves. Let's not kid ourselves here.
                  I'm going to address your last statement first. Masai really sells his moves well, of course he does, but he doesn't make them thinking about how easy they will be to sell. And he sells them in a simpler way. He doesn't build them up like crazy. Colangelo was infamous for the way he'd try to sell his moves, especially draft picks. Everybody was some other star. DeMar was like Carter. Jonas was like Chandler. Bargnani was Nowitzki. Masai obviously talks about good things he sees in guys, but he doesn't build them up like crazy. He also mostly fits everything into a rhetoric about building a team, and how important it is to have a good place for young talent to develop.

                  Now from the top paragraph down:

                  If the best you can get for a 2nd rounder is Sebastian Telfair, the reason is simple: a 2nd rounder has more value than Sebastian Telfair (on an expiring contract, so no re-trade value at all). You keep the pick and talk about how it was better for the team to stand pat. Nothing was worth the cost, mostly because nothing would actually make your team better.

                  --
                  It was stupid. Colangelo isn't a terrible GM in some ways, but it's the kind of job where if you have holes in your skill set, you're going to make some very bad mistakes. Colangelo was always bad at reading how players would actually fit into teams, and how to really fully build a team. Even those great PHX teams had some serious issues because of a lack of depth and size. However this move isn't even like that. It was purely out of desperation. He thought because he traded away Jose he needed to make a show of getting a backup PG, so he made a bad move just to do that. I didn't call him stupid. I called the move stupid. It was.

                  --
                  By the time Telfair got around to us, it was obvious any hope from physical gifts should be put long in the past. He never really improved his skills, and he was not getting any better with experience. Again, I never called Colangelo stupid, I'm calling out the way he managed a team. Some of the moves lacked any sense of foresight, or were clearly just not in the best interests of the team. Something that just got worse as the years passed and the pressure grew. Just because someone has certain qualifications for the job, doesn't mean they don't lack others. And even very qualified people make stupid moves sometimes. Nobody's perfect. And elevating someone simply based on experience, and in sports, these kinds of random accolades (GM of the year awards are pretty bad a lot of the time...I mean, Spurs didn't get one for Pop/Buford until 13-14) can be far from sensible.

                  Oh, and what he was pushing in PHX had been pushed by other teams/coaches for years in the league. It just never worked for a team until last year. It's not like he came up with anything. I'm sure he, and Kerr/Myers would all be first to tell you they only look smart because they were fortunate enough to have what turned out to be all-time great players at their position. You build teams around great players to maximize their skills. So yeah, I think we should be careful in how much credit he's given for anything here. It's not like he could ever get that team over the hump. I think Colangelo had a decent eye for talent, but not necessarily for judging mentality. I don't think he had a feel for roster building. His teams often have glaring holes or obvious on-court chemistry issues in terms of players fitting. He lacked foresight and patience. And yeah, business logic was always too present in all decisions, and I believe that includes his tendency to push a more offensive style of basketball.
                  Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jul 21st, 2015, 03:19 PM.

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                  • Colangelo's problem was that he had no idea how he wanted this team to function/play after his "European" experiment blew up in his face. Think about it, our best seasons with Bryan was in the early years when he clearly knew what he wanted this team to look like, which was a Euro jump shooting team with a splash of CB4.

                    Once he and everyone else realized that a team like that wouldn't work in this league, it was a downward spiral of quick bandaid fixes with a group of players that never had the chance to gel because either 1) they quite frankly weren't the right mix of guys or 2) Colangelo had zero patience and traded them away.

                    What's the big word that has been used since Masai took over...it's chemistry. Chemistry comes from luck, sure. But it also comes from a good GM who knows exactly how he wants his "prototypical" team to look like and thus, goes out and finds guys that can fit this plan. Colangelo, to me, just never looked like he knew how he wanted to build this team after his euro plan failed.

                    Also a sidenote argument. People always bring up how BC deserves credit because 4 of our 5 starters were from him. I hate this argument. I acknowledge that it's a fact but seriously, how do we ignore that we started 6-12 in Masai's first year with the starting lineup of: Lowry, DeMar, Gay, Amir, and JV. All guys inherited from BC. If not for Masai's trade, we NEVER would have tied our franchise record in wins that same season, nor would we have surpassed it the year after. Meaning no one would be sitting here saying, "but hey, Bryan got us these 4 of the 5 guys!" And judging by how early Masai got rid of Rudy, it tells you he already had has doubts about the team to begin with. He gave it 18 games before he decided what he most likely knew all along, which was that this Colangelo-inherited starting lineup with zero bench was gonna be a bottom feeding team. BC was responsible for most of our starters, yes, but if not for Masai's moves we never would have seen what BC gave us prosper.

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                    • golden wrote: View Post
                      I think Masai is trying to do similar things to Daryl Morey, with a high priority on young asset acquisition, player development & trades. It's the most difficult way to build a team and requires the highest level of GM skill (and luck, of course). Where Masai differs from Morey, IMO, would be in his higher value placed on chemistry and loyalty.

                      A good article on Morey and the recent Ty Lawson acquisition....

                      http://basketball.realgm.com/analysi...In-Their-Prime
                      I see they have Capela as a Centre. He's not, he's a 4. Which means Houston has 4 power forwards. Of the 4 I'd love Jones, DMo or Capela on this team. With any one of those 3 it wouldn't matter if PPat started becaus they'd probably split minutes pretty much evenly anyway like PPat and Amir did.
                      Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
                      Because its 2015

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                      • so many paragraphs...
                        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                        • Primer said:

                          Kyle Lowry is one of the best players in the league, why does it matter if he's a pass first PG? Curry isn't a pass first PG and just won the title. Keeping players (especially our best player on a great contract) shouldn't be considered a mistake. We have no idea what is available in trades, it's not completely in the GM's control.

                          You can definitely criticize a GM for signing players, since that is completely in their control. For instance, I wasn't fond of the GV signing, but Masai has rectified that mistake and turned him into a 1st and Normal Powell. Pretty damn impressive to turn your biggest roster mistake into 1st round pick, good 2nd round pick, and cap space.

                          I'm not fond of retaining Casey either, but I'll reserve final judgment there until we see what happens this season and in the offseason. If Casey still looks like shit and we retain him I'll be pretty damn upset.Primer said:




                          I still have a strong memory of with what baited-breath I awaited Kyle's decision as to where to go ... and still have some trouble believing how quickly he turned down good teams like the Rockets and the Heat to choose our beloved Raptors. For me, I think that that choice must be remembered and appreciated - honoured. I also agree that we should give DC, the new coaches and the new roster some time to see what they can become. Many moves have intended, unintended and ripple effects. And while I wouldn't dare to predict a number of wins for this team (though I'm rather expecting a playoff berth), I DO think that the Raptors are a franchise on the rise ... So. Well said, Primer (in my view)
                          Last edited by Wild-ling#1; Wed Jul 22nd, 2015, 12:07 PM.

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Colangelo made a lot of moves with the thought of being able to "sell" the move. In this specific example, despite it obviously being a move that would have no impact on wins, he did it because standing pat would look worse despite being actually better. Masai makes moves to try and make the team better, and the sales pitch is secondary because it will take care of itself if you do your job right.

                            And you can tell this if you listen to Colangelo talk about moves/players. He's always trying to find ways to talk them up. Brings up draft position or some type of accolade(s). Masai doesn't. He actually plays down a lot of his moves and always cautions against letting expectations spin out of control.
                            This is so true. Somewhat like the Knicks, it was important for Colangelo to look good and "win the press conference" for the benefit of public perception. Masai is kind of the opposite. His support of Casey, among other things, is an example of that.

                            One small Colangelo anecdote stands out. Remember when he traded a first round pick for James Johnson. BC justified that deal unequivocally and absolutely that ".... there is no one in this draft at the position we are drafting with more talent than James Johnson...". Of course, CoJo was drafted 1 slot later, then Jimmy Buckets and Isiah Thomas and Chandler Parsons in the second round. It was that kind of stuff that was irritating about BC - always having to "look like" the smartest guy in the room, despite the poor results.

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                            • Second-round picks (as per the list above, including Green and DeAndre Daniels, etc.) have value. Not 1st round value, of course. But still, both prospect and market value. So I think your "like snow-in-September" simile is ... misleading. Let's not get carried away, huh?

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                              • they talked about it in the podcast ... i mentioned it before...how masai has used the cap and created flexibility and held onto first round picks has been far and above what BC has done. Drafting wise I am very curious to see how Bruno plays out but seeing as we are picking in the 20s vs in the lottery Masai doesn't need to find all stars to show better success.

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