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Legacy League: Game #1 - e_wheazy v. Bobloblaw (Winner: e_wheazy)

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  • Legacy League: Game #1 - e_wheazy v. Bobloblaw (Winner: e_wheazy)

    The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

    Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

    Match-up #1

    e_wheazy's Starting Lineup:

    PG: John Stockton - NBA all-time leader in assists and steals
    SG: Reggie Miller - retired with most 3PM all time, career 39.5% from 3
    SF: Kawhi Leonard - Finals MVP, current Defensive Player of the Year
    PF: Karl Malone - 2x MVP, 11x All-NBA 1st team
    C: Dwight Howard - 3 consecutive Defensive Player of the Year awards
    Bn: Derrick Rose - youngest MVP in NBA history
    Bn: James Worthy - Finals MVP, 3x Champion
    Bn: Bob Lanier - retired with career 20PPG and 10RPG averages

    Bobloblaw's Lineup:

    g Walt 'Clyde' Frazier - 7x All-Defensive 1st team
    g Paul George - 2x All-NBA defensive
    f Kevin Durant - 4x scoring Champ, MVP
    f Kevin Garnett - 9x All-Defensive 1st team
    c Bill Walton - MVP, Finals MVP, 2x All-Defensive 1st team

    Bench
    g Chauncey Billups - Finals MVP
    f Michael Cooper - '87 Defensive Player of the YEar, 5x All-Defensive 1st team
    c Bill Lambeer - 2x Champion, lead NBA in rebounding in 1986

    e_wheazy's Gameplan

    DEFENSE:

    Aside from having a 3 time Defensive Player of the Year in Dwight Howard, this team also counts on Karl Malone, Kawhi Leonard, James Worthy and Bob Lanier, who give us strong interior defense, with all three being terrific weak side shot blockers and man to man defenders, as well as exceptional rebounders. On the perimeter, we have great on ball defenders in Kawhi, Stockton and Worthy, and a very underrated defender in Reggie Miller. All those guys are very smart at reading the passing lanes, have quick hands - leading to steals and thus fast break opportunities - and can hold their own in the post against guys much bigger than themselves (see 1995 EC finals vs the Bulls for example Reggie's underrated post D on Jordan). We also have quick and versatile enough guys to go over screens, pressure the ball handler or depending on matchups, switch effectively without losing a beat.

    OFFENSE:

    With personnel that can block shots, cause turnovers through steals and deflections, and box out/rebound well for their positions, it makes sense to develop a fast paced, up-tempo offense. Aside from the fact that it doesn't allow what is a very solid defense to set up in the half court, "Showtime" offense plays to the strengths of guys like Malone, Worthy, Rose, Kawhi, Reggie, and Dwight, who are athletic beasts and love to run and finish in transition; coupled with Stockton/Rose/Lanier's great outlet passing abilities and the former 2 players' playmaking skills, these guys would be scary in transition. Malone and Howard rolling to the rim for lobs, Kawhi, Stockton and especially Reggie pulling up for quick open threes or driving and finishing at the rim or even Rose going coast to coast, collapsing the already out-of-place D to find open shooters, provides plenty of scoring opportunities and stretch even further and already stretched out defense.

    Having big men who are great at setting picks and rolling to the rim, great playmakers in Stockton and Rose and great shooters in Kawhi and Reggie, the Horns offense would suit the strengths of this personnel. Dwight, Malone, Worthy and Lanier offer great options as rollers and Malone a great pick and pop option, with a lethal 15 footer; Kawhi and Reggie never stop running on offense, tiring their defenders and coming off screens for lethal 3 bombs or highlight reel dunks, all this gives the Stockton and Rose a myriad of options, not to mention Rose's superb speed which lets him blow by defenders and collapse the D.

    Two matchups we will look to take advantage of :
    6'11, 275lb uber-athletic, super quick Dwight Howard in the post and fighting for boards vs 6'11, 210lb Bill Walton
    And
    Smaller, quicker, constantly moving Reggie Miller vs Paul George http://www.gfycat.com/UnrulyAnguishedHornet

    Bobloblaw's Gameplan

    I think I have a defensive, athletic, long and tall, well shooting, very unselfish team. Frazier was 6'4 without shoes, obviously taller with them, every other starter at least 6'9, Bill Walton around 7'1-7'2.

    My worst 3 defenders are Chauncey Billups, Kevin Durant and Bill Lambeer, and they all were good. Most of my players were among the league's top defenders at some point.

    Walton and KG will protect the rim and smother penetration, and we have a lot of size and quickness on the perimeter (Frazier and Paul George can both guard all three perimeter positions).

    Offensively, I think we are a well spaced team: we have two shooters on the wing, a big man with a lot of range in Garnett, Walton with less range but still able hit a shot outside the paint, and Frazier, one of the deadliest old school shooters.

    Our best scorer is MVP Durant, but ultimately I think we are a very unselfish team with good ball movement, and our high / low post passing should be especially good as Walton and KG are among GOAT passing big men.

    We are also very athletic and will be great cutting to the rim and in transition, plus Walton is one of the great transition outlet passers.

    I don't have anything bad to say about my opponent's team, I think it's well built. I think my team is better defensively (I don't think Reggie can guard anyone in this matchup) and moves the ball better, but overall it's a fun and close matchup.


    In Game Adjustments -

    Bobloblaw's In game adjustments

    6'11, 275lb uber-athletic, super quick Dwight Howard in the post and fighting for boards vs 6'11, 210lb Bill Walton
    And
    Smaller, quicker, constantly moving Reggie Miller vs Paul George
    Regarding these matchups, Bill Walton wasn't actually 6'11, he was closer to 7'2 (I'm not allowed to go into much detail here, but check this thread or many others on google http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=348290)

    Also, 1960s and 1970s era weights are all college, I don't know what's Walton's actual NBA playing weight, he wasn't a heavy dude, but no way it's 210 (for example, Moses Malone is listed at 215, but he's probably 280+ in his prime).

    There's no question that prime Dwight is much more athletic, but Walton was significantly taller, dominant defensively with his rim protection and much more skilled offensively with his post moves, passing, better shooting range; Yao used to be a tough matchup for Dwight, I think Walton could be too.

    Paul George does very well defending quick, powerful point guards like prime Derrick Rose and such, he's a quick long high effort defender who can guard multiple positions, I think there's absolutely no way that Reggie is too quick for him.

    The question I think is the opposite, how does Reggie guard a tall, long, skilled athletic player like him, or anyone else in my starting lineup, I feel like it's 5 on 4.

    e_wheazy's in game adjustments

    There's no official record of Bill Walton's height ever being 7'2- all reputable sites (bbref, ESPN, NBA's own website) - it was a worthy attempt but I'll take the official NBA records (http://www.nba.com/history/players/walton_summary.html) over speculation off of a couple of pictures (for arguments sake we'll also use that listed weight - 235lbs).

    In terms of stopping KD, I feel like Kwahi can do a great job - not only does he have great defensive instincts and great BBIQ, but KD doesn't pose too many matchup problems for him (similar size, length, hands, energy levels), plus Bob's gameplan doesn't seem to feature him too prominently in ISO plays.

    I think Reggie is being severely underrated offensively, here are some clips of him leaving some very talented defenders in MJ and Kobe as well as Ray Allen, in his dust:

    http://www.gfycat.com/SpiritedDapperChimneyswift#

    http://www.gfycat.com/SickLimitedBabirusa

    http://www.gfycat.com/WeirdTemptingIcelandichorse

    Don't get me wrong, Paul George is an awesome defender, who performs well against ball dominant guys -which Reggie isn't - and even if he's super quick and can run for days (which he will need to do, guarding Reggie) he hasn't yet developed the ability to run through screens, which Reggie is a master of using (especially not those set by Karl Malone and Dwight Howard):

    http://www.gfycat.com/ThickEasygoingIrrawaddydolphin

    http://www.gfycat.com/ScaredWavyDrever#

    Reggie can absolutely light it up- he scored 8 points in 9 seconds - and even if you post him up and score two, he'll come back the next possession and nail a 3 in your face while getting fouled (all time leader in 4 point plays), but as a smart coach, if I see that Reggie is absolutely being abused on defense, I bring in Worthy, who is just as clutch and known as an excellent defender.

    So RR faithful, who wins this game?
    23
    e_wheazy's legends
    69.57%
    16
    Bobloblaw's legends
    30.43%
    7

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Axel; Fri Aug 7, 2015, 09:21 PM.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

  • #2
    I might vote differently if KD and George weren't coming off injury-plagued seasons, but I'm going for the Stockton-Malone team.

    Comment


    • #3
      This one is actually verrrrrry tough to call.
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

      Comment


      • #4
        good stuff guys!

        Comment


        • #5
          SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
          I might vote differently if KD and George weren't coming off injury-plagued seasons, but I'm going for the Stockton-Malone team.
          Both would be in their "prime", or "prime to date" as the case would be.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Axel wrote: View Post
            Both would be in their "prime", or "prime to date" as the case would be.
            Right, it still clouds perceptions though.

            Comment


            • #7
              Although Walton-Howard seems like a big problem for BobLoblaw, Laimbeer is the perfect counter off the bench. So I feel like matchup wise, these teams are even.

              To me, it comes down to intensity. Garnett and Durant are just so focussed, so intense, every time they play...I think the whole team feeds of that, and pushes them to another level.

              I vote BobLoblaw.
              "Stop eating your sushi."
              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
              - Jack Armstrong

              Comment


              • #8
                This is a tough match up and really hard to decide who would win. I honestly don't know who to pick.

                Edit:

                I think this boils down to match ups and depth

                Ewheazy has a natural unfair advantage of stockton + malone = inherent chemistry in his team.

                A prime Reggie Miller would abuse PG (George hasn't even hit his prime yet)

                Kevin Durant vs KLeonard is a good match up and given the problems KL gave to LB, i might be inclined to give the edge to KL but KD is much taller and more efficient scorer, so this could go either way.

                Malone vs Garnet would cancel each other out although I favour Malone because of athleticism and i feel he was more skilled than KG

                Howard would be a nightmare for Walton and I think Lambeer would disrupt Howard's rhythm.

                Although i'm not a fan of Rose, during his MVP year he was a problem for anyone guarding him and I don't think anyone could guard him on Bobloblaw's team.

                I feel EWheazy's team has the depth advantage and overall is a fairly balanced team and I give him the slight edge.
                Last edited by BS10; Fri Aug 7, 2015, 08:05 PM.
                #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is a tough battle... breaking it down player vs player I have this:

                  Stockton > Clyde ==> Stockton has the defensive chops and the IQ to take this battle.
                  Reggie < George ==> Always felt that Reggie was a bit overrated.
                  Kawhi < KD ==> Kawhi can slow KD down a bit, but KD is a much better player.
                  Malone == KG ==> Closest battle, so I call it even.
                  Howard < Walton ==> Walton can shoot free throws, and can ice the game when it's close.
                  Rose, worthy, Lanier > Billups, Cooper, Lambeer ==> More talent on e_wheazy's bench.

                  Worthy would have been a better starter over Reggie as he's more versatile on offense and defense.. and that would make things even for me. Assuming that adjustment is made, my vote goes for e_wheazy's. Bobloblaw's bench hurts him in my opinion and that's why he loses my vote.

                  Was not an easy decision at all. Great match-up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My in game adjustments - comments:

                    6'11, 275lb uber-athletic, super quick Dwight Howard in the post and fighting for boards vs 6'11, 210lb Bill Walton
                    And
                    Smaller, quicker, constantly moving Reggie Miller vs Paul George
                    Regarding these matchups, Bill Walton wasn't actually 6'11, he was closer to 7'2 (I'm not allowed to go into much detail here, but check this thread or many others on google http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=348290)

                    Also, 1960s and 1970s era weights are all college, I don't know what's Walton's actual NBA playing weight, he wasn't a heavy dude, but no way it's 210 (for example, Moses Malone is listed at 215, but he's probably 280+ in his prime).

                    There's no question that prime Dwight is much more athletic, but Walton was significantly taller, dominant defensively with his rim protection and much more skilled offensively with his post moves, passing, better shooting range; Yao used to be a tough matchup for Dwight, I think Walton could be too.

                    Paul George does very well defending quick, powerful point guards like prime Derrick Rose and such, he's a quick long high effort defender who can guard multiple positions, I think there's absolutely no way that Reggie is too quick for him.

                    The question I think is the opposite, how does Reggie guard a tall, long, skilled athletic player like him, or anyone else in my starting lineup, I feel like it's 5 on 4.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I vote BobLoblaw. Don't have enough time to give my reasons. Sorry e_wheazy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        no wheazy adjustment?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          First thoughts:

                          I like Walton over Dwight. Dwight doesn't have enough on offense and when you start taking away what he likes to go to he has no answers for you unlike most great big men who post 20 PPG or more. Wheazy is banking on Dwight winning this one because of athleticism but the big fella needs to know how to use it and he's proven over his career to be extremely limited in his post most. I don't see him beating Bill with what he has. On defense I have no doubt that Dwight does hold his own however.

                          I would have liked to see wheazy put more into how he stops Durant. However, on the flip side Bob wants to move the ball around a lot and so I don't see him focusing on Durant too much and instead trying to feed everyone. That's fine when you have squads like this but there might be some points left on the table here as Durant is his greatest scorer in my opinion; he is used to playing with guys who need lots of looks though.

                          I haven't voted yet. I need to review more and wait for both team's adjustments... Plus its Friday night so I'll probably think this through more and wait until tomorrow to vote.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Legacy League Game #1 - VOTE for the winner!!

                            ADJUSTMENTS/REBUTTALS

                            There's no official record of Bill Walton's height ever being 7'2- all reputable sites (bbref, ESPN, NBA's own website) - it was a worthy attempt but I'll take the official NBA records (http://www.nba.com/history/players/walton_summary.html) over speculation off of a couple of pictures (for arguments sake we'll also use that listed weight - 235lbs).

                            In terms of stopping KD, I feel like Kwahi can do a great job - not only does he have great defensive instincts and great BBIQ, but KD doesn't pose too many matchup problems for him (similar size, length, hands, energy levels), plus Bob's gameplan doesn't seem to feature him too prominently in ISO plays.

                            I think Reggie is being severely underrated offensively, here are some clips of him leaving some very talented defenders in MJ and Kobe as well as Ray Allen, in his dust:

                            http://www.gfycat.com/SpiritedDapperChimneyswift#

                            http://www.gfycat.com/SickLimitedBabirusa

                            http://www.gfycat.com/WeirdTemptingIcelandichorse

                            Don't get me wrong, Paul George is an awesome defender, who performs well against ball dominant guys -which Reggie isn't - and even if he's super quick and can run for days (which he will need to do, guarding Reggie) he hasn't yet developed the ability to run through screens, which Reggie is a master of using (especially not those set by Karl Malone and Dwight Howard):

                            http://www.gfycat.com/ThickEasygoingIrrawaddydolphin

                            http://www.gfycat.com/ScaredWavyDrever#

                            Reggie can absolutely light it up- he scored 8 points in 9 seconds - and even if you post him up and score two, he'll come back the next possession and nail a 3 in your face while getting fouled (all time leader in 4 point plays), but as a smart coach, if I see that Reggie is absolutely being abused on defense, I bring in Worthy, who is just as clutch and known as an excellent defender.

                            Edit: edited just to add the title of Rebuttals
                            Last edited by e_wheazhy_; Fri Aug 7, 2015, 09:30 PM.
                            A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is another tight one but I am voting for the big ticket. I think he is the difference here.

                              Comment

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