Legacy League: Game #2 - Dan v. planetmars (Winner: planetmars)

[Axel]

The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

Match-up #2

DanH starters

PG - Joe Dumars - 4x All-Defensive 1st team
SG - Clyde "The Glide" Drexler - 10x allstar, retired with 20.4 PPG
SF - Scottie Pippen - 8x All-Defensive 1st team
PF - Dennis Rodman - 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 7x All-Defensive 1st team
C - David Robinson - 4x All-Defensive 1st team
Bench - Marc Gasol - 2013 Defensive Player of the Year
Bench - Andre Iguodala - 2014 All-Defensive 1st team
Bench - John Wall - 2015 All-Defensive 2nd team

planetmars Starters:

C - Robert Parish - 4x Champion, 9x all star
PF - Charles Barkley - '93 MVP, career 22PPG and 11.7 RPG
SF - Lebron James - 4x MVP, 5x All-Defensive 1st team
SG - Bruce Bowen - 5x All-Defensive 1st team, 3x All-Defensive 2nd team
PG - Chris Paul - 5x All-Defensive 1st team, 4x NBA leader in assists, 6x NBA leader in steals

Bench
Ben Wallace - 4x Defensive Player of the Year
James Harden - 2x All-NBA first team
Bernard King - '85 scoring leader, 2x All-NBA first team

DanH Game plan

Stop 'em dead, rebound, run it down their throats. In the half court, I've got one of the premiere C scorers of all time, posting usage rates over 30%, PER's over 30, and topping out at 29.8 points per game, who is also a tremendous passer, putting up assist rates from 15-20% in his prime. Pack the paint, and you've got Joe Dumars (38% career) and Scottie Pippen (35%+ in his peak) hitting open threes. Get back out, and Clyde the Glide goes to work, diving into the teeth of your defence and if any of them miss - well, I didn't pick the Worm by mistake (a 21% offensive rebound rate by himself - add in the rest of the starters and we expect to get back a full 57% (!) of our missed shots). Throw in a bench of a PG who is too fast for practically every player in this tourney, one of the best defensive and passing (and shooting) bigs in the game today, and an elite do-everything defensive wing, and I think we'll be OK.

Planetmars has a nice team, but it just doesn't stack up - he's got offensive players, and defensive players, but few all around players. The holes in his defence are gaping - James Harden? - and his defensive subs are largely useless offensively (Wallace, Bowen). Meanwhile, his offensive talents are going to get eaten alive - you think LBJ will enjoy a full game of getting defended by a rotation of Pippen, Rodman and Iggy (combined 20x all-defence) all with fresh legs - or that Paul is going to have fun being hounded by Joe Dumars (5x all-defence), or that Barkley is going to be having his way with Dennis Rodman or Marc Gasol? All with the Admiral standing waiting at the rim - DPOY, 8 time all-defence, 5th in NBA history in total blocks. And who on that team is playing without the ball - everyone who can score needs the ball in their hands.

planetmars Gameplan

DanH's team is built on defense but other than Robinson/Gasol, Drexler and Wall the rest of the team aren`t really known for their scoring. The key to winning would be to make it difficult for his scorers from getting easy looks. I'd front David Robinson (or Marc Gasol) with Parish and use one of Barkley or Wallace on an occasional double team to make it difficult for them to operate in the paint, while using a combination of LBJ, Bowen and King on Drexler, Pippen and Iggy, giving each player different looks. Paul and Harden will cover the point guards (Paul on Wall and Harden on Dumars would be the preferred scenarios). Would prefer to leave Rodman open on offense as he`s only really proficient on the defensive side.

Offense will be more of a perimeter based system with LBJ and Paul being the main facilitators (and Harden coming off the bench to relieve Paul). Parish is very good at setting screens and can get guys like Paul, Harden and King easy looks on offense, separating themselves from whoever is guarding them. If Pippen or Iggy end up covering LBJ, we'll get him to use his size to back them down into the paint waiting for a double team from Rodman, Gasol or Robinson and then swing the ball across to the far weak side for an open 3 from either Bowen, Paul or Harden depending on who gets there and who is playing. LBJ is dominant in isolation so we`ll let him get his while Barkley, Wallace or Parish look for any opportunity to grab an offensive rebound or a put back dunk. There is also an opportunity to go small with Wallace at the 5, LBJ at the 4, Bowen at the 3, Harden at the 2 and Paul at the 1 which gives Planetmars 4 guys that can shoot the 3 forcing guys like Rodman or Gasol (if DanH decides to play both Gasol and Robinson together) guarding the perimeter while the post man is wasting away at the paint battling a proficient offensive rebounder in Ben Wallace for loose boards.

In Game Adjustments -
DanH adjustment


I think people are underestimating the Glide in terms of his offensive capability (27 PPG scorer in his prime, 9 OWS, +6 OBPM). I think people are underestimating my non-PG's as playmakers (Robinson 20% AST%, Dumars 25%, Pippen 25%, Worm 10%, Drexler 30% - Drexler and Robinson would be my primary options initiating offence) - I've got a LOT of playmaking from every position, plus the extraordinary undervaluing of Wall, who posted a 46% AST rate last year, also known as Chris Paul's career average. It's true that I have a tremendous offensive rebounding team - but I'm not lacking for offensive talent. Besides the playmaking stats that I posted, my 5 starters have career peak scoring averages of 27.2 PPG, 23.5 PPG, 29.8 PPG, 22.0 PPG and 11.6 PPG (total of 114.1), while planetmars' 5 starters have peak scoring averages of 19.9 PPG, 31.4 PPG, 28.3 PPG, 8.2 PPG and 22.8 PPG (total of 110.6) - I'm not seeing the discrepancy others are.

So RR faithful, who wins this game?

[BobLoblaw]

My thoughts -- DanH team: A ton of defensive talent, the frontcourt is ridiculous defensively, about as good as you can get.

I think Robinson would be an even higher impact defensive player today due to his mobility.

Drexler is the only starter I'd consider only average defensively, although he tended to play harder on D in playoffs. High defensive talent off the bench too.

Offensively, I think there's a lot of athleticism and basketball IQ, multiple great transition players, lots of offensive rebounding. This team should be good in transition, and in halfcourt it will be a tough, grindy team.

In my eyes, the biggest issue is spacing, not enough shooters. Pippen and Drexler didn't have 3pt range in their prime (not counting 1994-1996 or 1997 when the 3pt line was shorter), nor were they great midrange shooters. Rodman, not a shooter, Robinson, good range for a center, but he's no Mehmet Okur. That leaves Dumars, who developed into a solid shooter with time. Not much shooting off the bench either.

I think this halfcourt offense could be something special with more spacing. Elite finishers like Drexler, Pippen, an elite mobile scoring big man like Robinson, all of them are smart and can pass well.

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planetmars team:

Lots of talent, CP3, Barkley and LeBron is a monster big 3. Parish IMO would be very good today, he's the type of mobile defensive center that teams like nowadays. Powerful bench.

There might be a bit too many volume ball handlers -- LeBron, CP3, Barkley, plus Harden and King off the bench. It's not that they won't figure out how to play together, they are smart dudes. It's just that their skillsets will get underused somewhat here, I think.

Still, I think this offense will work well. And it's a good defensive team too, although not as good as Dan's.

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Overall, I think planetmars has an A- defensive team to Dan's A+, but I think planetmars's offense makes up for it, in part due to offensive talent advantage, in part due to better fit.

Also, DanH has a grinding, offensive rebounding team, but planetmars actually has big tough dudes inside with Barkley, LeBron, Parish, Ben Wallace, this is a very good rebounding team too. It won't be easy to outrebound these guys.

Winner: planetmars

[BS10]

I like DanH's team but not enough play makers and scoring threats to create offence. Planetmar's team is more balanced and has a little bit of everything and he gets my vote.

[Bonus Jonas]

Waiting for edits to vote. But if I had to right now I'd go with DanH based on the fact that Robinson will eat Parish alive. And putting Ben Wallace in means Paul, Lebron and Barkley are the only ones playing offense, with an occasional 3 from Bowen. And switching Bowen for Harden opens up another defensive issue. This isn't my vote though, want to see how planetmars adjusts

[JimiCliff]

Man, I would've loved to see Pippen trying to guard Lebron.

[Snooch]

Waiting for edits to vote. But if I had to right now I'd go with DanH based on the fact that Robinson will eat Parish alive. And putting Ben Wallace in means Paul, Lebron and Barkley are the only ones playing offense, with an occasional 3 from Bowen. And switching Bowen for Harden opens up another defensive issue. This isn't my vote though, want to see how planetmars adjusts

parish im his prime would not be eaten alive at all./ parish was a stud man.

[Miekenstien]

good match-up

[Bonus Jonas]

parish im his prime would not be eaten alive at all./ parish was a stud man.

Robinson is something else. He's one of the smartest to ever play, and knew exactly which play to make. I'd take Robinson offensively over Parish defensively any day.

[Apollo]

Damn man, this match up would have the potential for guys coming to blows. It's such a good showdown.

Key matchups in my opinion are:

LeBron Vs. Scotty

and

Drexler Vs. Bowens.

PM has more pop off the bench in my mind.

I will be voting tomorrow.

[Miekenstien]

I think these teams are so even, however I do think the worm negates any offense that might be coming from planetmars. He just didn't need to score when he was a bull but he could. When he grabbed those offensive boards he didn't go for garbage points, he reset the entire offense.

I think the worm is the difference here. One game could be anyone but voting Dan

[Axel]

I've gone back and forth on this one quite a few times already. I love Dan's defence with Pippen/Rodman/Robinson, but without a true PG (Dumars was more a SG next to Zeke Thomas) except the yet-to-really-peak-as-a-play-maker John Wall, I really struggle to see how Dan's team creates offence. Pippen and Drexler were both great scorers, as was Robinson, but none are exactly play-makers.

Then you look at planetmars team. With Chris Paul and LeBron, he has two fantastic play-makers who can score; working with MVP Barkley. Bowen doesn't need to score anymore than he did with the Spurs behind Duncan, Parker, Manu - and Paul, LeBron and Barkley are a better trio than the Spurs (which is saying a lot).

I think planetmars has a strong rebounding team, which is Dan's bread and butter with that line-up. Ben Wallace off the bench helps cover up Harden's defensive woes, but again, Dan's team lacks offensive creativity or range (Iggy off the bench seems redundant).

I really like Dan's team, as Pippen/Rodman can shut down just about anyone, but with no play-making on offence, hard to see Dan having enough successful trips down the court to out-score planetmars.

As of now, leaning to planetmars.

[DanH]

I guess my rebuttal/additional comments are thus:

I think people are underestimating the Glide in terms of his offensive capability (27 PPG scorer in his prime, 9 OWS, +6 OBPM). I think people are underestimating my non-PG's as playmakers (Robinson 20% AST%, Dumars 25%, Pippen 25%, Worm 10%, Drexler 30% - Drexler and Robinson would be my primary options initiating offence) - I've got a LOT of playmaking from every position, plus the extraordinary undervaluing of Wall, who posted a 46% AST rate last year, also known as Chris Paul's career average. It's true that I have a tremendous offensive rebounding team - but I'm not lacking for offensive talent. Besides the playmaking stats that I posted, my 5 starters have career peak scoring averages of 27.2 PPG, 23.5 PPG, 29.8 PPG, 22.0 PPG and 11.6 PPG (total of 114.1), while planetmars' 5 starters have peak scoring averages of 19.9 PPG, 31.4 PPG, 28.3 PPG, 8.2 PPG and 22.8 PPG (total of 110.6) - I'm not seeing the discrepancy others are.

[MixxAOR]

As far as frontcourt battle this is probably the closest we got.

[Apollo]

Chris Paul & LeBron James is a deadly combination quarterbacking the offense. It gives James more room to focus on scoring and offensive rebounding. Not sure how Harden would respond as second fiddle to the immensely less talented Bruce Bowen though.

Dan is sporting one serious defense. I pretty sure that PM will have to live and die by the jump shot and good on him for recognizing that and building his game plan around that reality.

I would have liked to have seen a little more offensive pop coming off Dan's bench. He's fully invested in bringing the game to a screeching halt and grinding out low scoring affairs. It worked for the Pistons, does it work here? Stay tuned to find out.

[e_wheazhy_]

This is a tough matchup, really close to call, one team is built to stop pretty much everything, and the other is full of guys who can take over... It's tough because I love both teams' build and I think both coaches showed smarts and basketball accumen in building their strategies to suit their teams' strengths.

Honestly the only way I see it decided is by me listing how many points I think each player will get and adding up their totals.