Legacy League: Game #3 - Axel v. JimiCliff (Winner: Axel)

[Axel]

The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.


Axel's Lineup

PG - Oscar Robertson - 9x All-NBA 1st team, only player to avg a triple double in a season in history
SG - Glen Rice - 3x All-Star, career 40% from 3 with career high of 47% (5th highest in history, min 300 3PA)
SF - Peja Stojakovic - 3x All-Star, career 40% from 3 with career high of 44%
PF - Kevin McHale - 3x All-Defensive 1st team, career 17.9 PPG 7.3 RPG avgs
C - Arvydas Sabonis - Multiple Euro MVPs, NBA All-Rookie, 37.5% from 3 as rookie

Bench
G/F George 'Ice Man' Gervin - 4x scoring champ, 5x All-NBA first team
G/F Manu Ginobili - 2005 playoff stat avgs of 20.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG 50.7% FG%, 43.8% 3P%
F/C Amar'e Stoudemire - All-NBA 1st team avg 25 PPG, 9.1 RPG on 59% FG%

JimiCliff's Lineup

PG: Dennis Johnson...1978-79 Playoffs: 20.9 ppg, 6.1 rpg., 4.1 apg., 1.6 spg., 1.5 bpg. 6 x 1st Team All-Defence, 3 x 2nd Team All`-Defence, 1 x 1st Team All-NBA, 1 x 2nd Team All-NBA, 3 x NBA Champion, 1978-79 NBA Final MVP

SG: Latrell Sprewell...1996-97: 24.2 ppg., 4.6 rpg., 6.3 apg., 1.7 spg., .354 3pt%, 4 x All-Star, 1 x 1st Team All-NBA, 1 x 2nd Team All-Defence

SF: Larry Bird...1984-85: 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg., 6.6 apg., 1.6 spg., 1.2 bpg., .427 3pt%, .522 fg%. .882 ft%, 9 x 1st Team All-NBA, 3 x 2nd Team All-Defence, 3 x NBA Champion, 3 x NBA MVP, 2 x NBA Finals MVP

PF: Rasheed Wallace...2001-02 19.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg., 1.3 spg, 1.3 bpg, .360 3pt% 4 x All-Star, 2 x NBA Champion.

C: Vlade Divac...1994-95 16.0 ppg, 10.4 rpg., 4.1 apg, 1.4 spg., 2.2 bpg, 41st all-time Defensive Win Shares.

BN: Grant Hill...1999-00 25.8 ppg., 6.6 rpg., 5.2 apg., 1.4 spg., 8.2 fta., 1 x 1st Team All-NBA, 4 x 2nd Team All-NBA, 2 x NCAA Champion

BN: Anthony Davis...2014-15: 24.4 ppg, 10.2 rpg., 2.9 bpg., 1.5 spg., 30.8 PER., 1 x 1st Team All-NBA, 1 x 2nd Team All-Defence, 1 x NCAA Champion

BN: Robert Horry...53rd all-time NBA D-Rating., .341 career 3pt%., ∞ clutch plays, 7 x NBA Champion


Axel's Gameplan

With Glen Rice (47% 3P) and Peja Stojakovic (43% 3P) on the wings, a simple high-low offence should stretch the defence. With Arvydas Sabonis's size, athleticism and shooting touch operating in the high post/screen game, Kevin McHale should have plenty of room to operate his post game (26PPG on 60.4% FG%) on the low block. Off ball movement from Rice and Peja will trap any defender trying to help on the ball, especially with staggered back screens, with open threes. Defending the ball in the hands of Oscar Robertson is impossible for any single defender, so help will have to come. The Big O, the only player to ever average a triple double for a full season, will pressure the defence with his elite scoring and passing.

Against a front court that lacks muscle, the 7'3" 292lbs Sabonis, will power his way to rebounds and deep post positioning. A great passer with perimeter range, Sabonis offers pick and pop, low post or high post options to initiate the offence against the smaller JimiCliff bigs. Manu, Gervin, and Amar'e all offer high octane offence off the bench, along with athleticism, intelligence, and ball movement.

Defensively, the length/size of my team will contest shots and with elite rebounders cleaning the glass, each trip should be one and one. By controlling the glass, we will be able to control the tempo and use our size and skill to defeat team JimiCliff.

JimiCliff's Gameplan

This series is going to come down to defence.

Up and down, my squad is strong defensively, with multiple All-NBA defenders (DJ, Bird, Brow and Spree), elite rim protection (Brow), excellent one-on-one post defenders (Vlade and Sheed), and solid positional players (Hill and Horry).

The starting lineup will be set to maximize the D: all-time great defender Dennis Johnson slowing down the big O; Spree, with the quickness, strength and tenacity to make life tough for Gervin; Rasheed, who, with his combo of size, b-ball IQ and athleticism, is the perfect post defender to match up with McHale; and Vlade, who's big enough to handle Sabonis, but more importantly has the European training that will allow him to be comfortable and effective checking Arvydas at the 3pt line.

Defence, though, is Axel's team's glaring weakness. Most critically: there isn't a wing on the roster that has a hope of guarding Larry Bird. Peja and Rice were average defenders at best. Neither Gervin (6'7'', 180 lbs.) nor Manu (6'6'', 210 lbs.) were any kind of defensive force, and both would be undersized against Bird (6'9'', 220 lbs.), an all-time great scorer who'd be able to punish them outside and inside.

Guarding Bird is an issue Axel's team can't possibly solve. It's the only significant mismatch you can find amongst the two teams, and it's more than enough to swing this matchup my way.


In Game Adjustments -

JimiCliff's in game adjustments

Off ball movement from Rice and Peja will trap any defender trying to help on the ball, especially with staggered back screens, with open threes.

Grant Hill, Spree, Bird and Horry all have the quickness and intelligence to maneuver around and through those screens, and would be able to stick with the relatively slow-footed Rice and Peja.

Against a front court that lacks muscle, the 7'3" 292lbs Sabonis

I really doubt Sabonis was 292 in his pre-NBA days - 292 seems right for the, uh, 'un-athletic' version the NBA saw, but not the supposedly nimble European version.

Defending the ball in the hands of Oscar Robertson is impossible for any single defender, so help will have to come.

Maybe impossible for an average, or even above-average defender, but not an all-time great like DJ. This is how he did covering Magic (an even tougher cover than the Big O) in the 1984 Finals: 'DJ took credit for playing smothering defense on Hall of Fame Lakers playmaker Magic Johnson, limiting him to a sub-average 17 points in the last four games, and being at least partly responsible for several of the Laker point guard's game-deciding errors in Games 2, 4 and 7.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis...te-magicbio-17

Defensively, the length/size of my team will contest shots and with elite rebounders cleaning the glass, each trip should be one and one.

It just isn't true - there simply isn't any length to contest Bird's shots. Axel's wings max out at 6'7'', and Bird was 6'9''. Once again: the Bird mismatch is the difference maker here.

Axel's In Game Adjustments

"Vlade, who's big enough to handle Sabonis, but more importantly has the European training that will allow him to be comfortable and effective checking Arvydas at the 3pt line" - when they faced off as starters in the 1988 Olympics gold medal game, Vlade put up 11 points, 7 rebounds, while Sabonis put up 20 points, 15 rebounds in a 76-63 win for Sabonis.

Sabonis, at 7'3, 292 lbs (as referenced on NBA.com for his Hall of Fame induction), is simply too large for the smaller Divac to match physically, let alone handle the skills that have been called (quote from a Grantland article) "He had the skills of Larry Bird and Pete Maravich, the athleticism of Kareem, and he could shoot the 3-point shot; He could pass and run the floor, dribble." - http://grantland.com/features/arvyda...-strange-trip/


"there simply isn't any length to contest Bird's shots. Axel's wings max out at 6'7'', and Bird was 6'9''. Once again: the Bird mismatch is the difference maker here." - The 6'9" Peja is obviously taller than 6'7", but with size advantages at starting PG, SG, and C all contributing to the overall length, Dennis Johnson's inept 3 point shooting (career 17.2%) and passing (2.8 APG) allows the 6'5, 205 lbs Oscar Robertson to sag off completely to pressure Bird as a secondary defender.

Oscar Robertson, clearly a tougher match-up than Magic due to his 1961-1962 averages 30.8 PPG (higher than any season by Bird and not even Oscar's best scoring year), 11.4 APG (when assists were harder to score), and 12.5 RPG (higher than anyone on JimiCliff's roster), is the most dynamic player on the court and has a 20 lbs (listed weight) and 1 inch height advantage over DJ. JimiCliff cannot defend the Big O with single coverage, leaving opportunities for Oscar to score, hit open 3PA with Rice/Peja/Manu, find inside looks for McHale/Sabonis/Stoudemire or find 4x NBA scoring Champ Gervin anywhere in between.

So RR faithful, who wins this game?

[Snooch]

DJ will slow Oscar just a little tiny bit, But Bird is going for 30,8 and 8 a game.

I give the edge to the team with the kid from baden springs Indiana.

[BS10]

This is the toughest one yet to call… both teams are stacked with talent.. Axel's team looks amazing on paper + he has a clear strategy in the make up of the roster but Jimicliff has sooo much talent (AD, GH, Bird). I'll have to think about this one for a while.

[JimiCliff]

Off ball movement from Rice and Peja will trap any defender trying to help on the ball, especially with staggered back screens, with open threes.

Grant Hill, Spree, Bird and Horry all have the quickness and intelligence to maneuver around and through those screens, and would be able to stick with the relatively slow-footed Rice and Peja.

Against a front court that lacks muscle, the 7'3" 292lbs Sabonis

I really doubt Sabonis was 292 in his pre-NBA days - 292 seems right for the, uh, 'un-athletic' version the NBA saw, but not the supposedly nimble European version.

Defending the ball in the hands of Oscar Robertson is impossible for any single defender, so help will have to come.

Maybe impossible for an average, or even above-average defender, but not an all-time great like DJ. This is how he did covering Magic (an even tougher cover than the Big O) in the 1984 Finals: 'DJ took credit for playing smothering defense on Hall of Fame Lakers playmaker Magic Johnson, limiting him to a sub-average 17 points in the last four games, and being at least partly responsible for several of the Laker point guard's game-deciding errors in Games 2, 4 and 7.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis...te-magicbio-17

Defensively, the length/size of my team will contest shots and with elite rebounders cleaning the glass, each trip should be one and one.

It just isn't true - there simply isn't any length to contest Bird's shots. Axel's wings max out at 6'7'', and Bird was 6'9''. Once again: the Bird mismatch is the difference maker here.

[Axel]

Both in game adjustments have been posted, no more from JimiCliff or I in this thread.

[Miekenstien]

I don't want to vote against bird here but I think bringing hill off the bench is a mistake and Davis off the bench is a mistake. Bench is really small now. I think amare goes nuts on anyone you bring in against him.

I think in a series bird wins this but voting axel.

Good game guys.

[Apollo]

This one looks interesting. Will hold off voting until tomorrow because I invested my time so far considering game #1 &2.

[BobLoblaw]

Good matchup. I also like Jimi's team more with Hill starting, I think he was bad matchup for Rice. I liked Davis starting too, though I'm not sure if I'd start him instead of Sheed or Divac. Maybe Divac helps with rebounding more than Sheed? That's important against Sabonis. But Davis / Sheed would be harder for Sabonis to defend, and they are both long, quick, you could try mostly fronting Sabonis with them.

Sabonis outplayed, maybe you could say dominated Divac multiple times in FIBA, so I think I might've went with Davis / Sheed just because it's unknown, Divac - Sabonis is too known and not in a good way for Divac.

With Sabonis, I think the key is to deny him the ball in the low post, because if he gets it close enough to the rim, he has a hundred finishing moves, huge size and soft touch, he'll probably make it, hooks with both hands, finger roll, bank shot off the board, simple turnaround jumper, you name it. I think Sheed / Davis might be an interesting combo to throw at him, two long guys, one fronts him, the other is quick and long enough to crowd him if necessary for a bit.

I don't want to overrate Sabonis here, but he did play well in the NBA even as an old rookie. He was clearly a star level center, just played limited minutes, around 20-12 per 36 with very good efficiency, great passing, good shooting, some rim protection in those first years. If he enters the NBA a little younger, a bit more athletic, adjusts to the NBA at a younger age, I think it's reasonable to think that he'd be at least a Yao level player.

That Walton quote that 19 year old Sabonis was as athletic as Kareem, I doubt it, though I don't think I've seen a game of Sabonis as a 19 year old. At 20, he definitely wasn't anywhere close to Kareem's athleticism, but he was more athletic than in the NBA. Then again, Sabonis added a lot of weight in his late teens, so maybe when Walton saw him at 19, he was that athletic. This is Sabonis at 17:

Very thin, by 20 he was much more muscular. Anyway, that weight and power was important for Sabonis, so I think his prime is after 20 at some point, and at that time, he was nowhere as athletic as Kareem, but much stronger.

I think his prime is either in 1986ish, before injuries, or early-mid 90s. I think he was more skilled in early-mid 90s, more post moves, more... mental maturity maybe (he's an emotional guy, he could get easily rattled especially as a young guy), but he was thinner and more athletic as a 20-21 year old and could already shoot 3s, make great passes, score in the paint over big guys in a variety of ways. So it's debatable, when exactly was he at his prime.

I also think that Sabonis / Oscar combo fits nicely, Oscar's bread and butter as a scorer was off screen shooting, and Sabonis is a great huge screen setter. Oscar played huge minutes in a very fast ball era though, no way he's a 30-10-10 or something guy today, maybe more like 20-10-5. Also he dominated the ball even more than someone like CP3, and he would have to share it more in today's game. But I think he'd be a very good player, and he played hard on both ends, great footwork defensively.

Overall, I like team Axel offense a lot, two great scorers in the post, both with shooting range, good screens for Oscar, a lot of shooting everywhere, good passing. Defensively, bigs and Oscar are solid, Peja maybe average because of IQ, Rice I think was bad.

Guarding Bird will be a major issue. But I feel that there are too many subpar shooters and bad shot selection around Bird. Team Jimi has much better defense, but on the other end I think it kind of helps defend itself a bit. Tell Peja or maybe Oscar to do their best on Bird and send help a lot, and hope that Spree ends up taking a lot of midrange jumpers and 3s.

It's a close call, but I'll go with Team Axel here. I think with Grant Hill and Davis starting I might've gone the other way, I'm not sure.

[e_wheazhy_]

Bump!

[e_wheazhy_]

I really like this matchup, but overall I really like the problems that Axel's team can cause to Jimi's defense. Although he has bird, I really feel like Axel's team has the drive to pull this one out

[Joey]

Switched mine up last minute and went with Axel ... Sorry Jimi! Haha

Jimis team just doesn't have that one guy who will look to get everyone involved and make his teammates better, and with this type of format, you need that in my opinion ... for Jimi, I actually envision alot of the offense going through Vlade, with Sprewell taking on the majority of the playmaking and ball distibution, but if Spree is the guy with the ball in his hands, then there's a problem. He didn't really speak at all to how he would involve Bird more in the offense, and Bird should have been the focus for anything related to the offense.

Good matchup though guys! Really enjoyed reading the write-ups and counters!

[Bonus Jonas]

I'm torn on this one. Jimi's got the team that I think would win but Axel argued better.

[planetmars]

This was close but going with Jimi on this one.. I don't think Axel has anyone that can stop Bird, yet I think a combination of DJ and Sprewell can do enough of a job on the Big "O" to slow him down. I also can't discount Big Shot Rob coming off the bench. Bird to Horry for a clutch 3 to ice the game is bound to happen in this game.

[Miekenstien]

dos doc come break ties?

[Miekenstien]

what's going on with this tie? how much time is left? maybe a half hour by half hour reminder for members to come vote. this is tense