Legacy League: Game #7 - Snooch v. 007 (Winner: 007)

[Axel]

The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

Match-up #7

Snooch Lineup

PG: Jason Kidd - 4x All-Defensive 1st team, 5x All-NBA 1st team
SG: Rick Barry - 5x All-NBA 1st team, 8x All-Star
SF: AK47 - All-Defensive 1st team, 2x All-Defensive 2nd team
PF: Bill Russell - 5x MVP, 11x Champion
C: Elvin Hayes - 3x All-NBA 1st team, 12x All-Star

6th man: Chris Mullin - All-NBA 1st team, 5x All-Star
7th: Pau Gasol - 5x All-Star, 2x Champion
8th: Earl the Pearl Monroe - 4x All-Star, All-NBA 1st team

007 Lineup

Isiah Thomas - 3x All-NBA 1st team, 2x Champion
Sidney Moncrief - 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 4x All-Defensive 1st team
Dominique Wilkins - 9x All-Star, All-NBA 1st team
Tim Duncan - 10x All-NBA 1st team, 2x MVP, 8x All-Defensive 1st team
Artis Gilmore - '72 ABA MVP, 11x NBA/ABA All-Star

Bench:

Tim Hardaway - All-NBA 1st team, 5x All-Star
Dave DeBusschere - 6x All-Defensive 1st team, 8x All-Star
Dave Cowens - '73 MVP, All-Defensive 1st team, 7x All-Star

Snooch Gameplan:

Offense.

1) We will be running all low post offense through Elvin Hayes, In the year I picked Elvin averaged 31.5ppg and 12.5rpg against Cowens.

2) Russell while not know for his offense used to lead the break, and was a beast on the boards and moved tirelessly, he will keep Duncan on his toes by doing all the things he should.

3) I will also consistently run screens between Barry and AK47 on the offensive end forcing the defensively challenged Wilkins to try and stop the offensive onslaught on Rick Barry.

4) Kidd will utilize his post ups on Thomas with his size advantage and will with score himself from the block or kick out to Rick Barry/Mullin on the wing for their very high percentage threes.

5) Gilmore cannot keep up with Gasol's speed off the bench who will dragging Gilmore out to and beyond the three point line and taking him off the dribble.

6) Mullin will make DeB. earn his keep defensively with his high 3pt% and ability to handle and post up.

Defense.

7) Kidd, being one the of best defender at his position. will pester and hound and be physical with the smaller Thomas, which was Thomas' greatest weakness.

8) AK47 will give Nique something he has never seen before, shot blocking from behind, length and all around defense and tenacity.

9) Hayes is an all NBA defender and great shotblocker/rebounder.

10) Russell is the greatest defender in the history and will be blocking shots from the help side, stepping out on screens, rebounding, getting into passing lanes and leading the break, doing everything you could only hope a player could do on that end.

007 Gameplan

I was originally going to start Cowens, but Gilmore is a better choice to go against Russell: he can play defence (4 All-Defensive First Teams), he's bigger (4 inches and 20 pounds bigger than Russell), and he's the most effective scorer of all time (career 60% shooter, had multiple seasons above 65%). Russell's front court mate, Hayes, is good, but Duncan is the best Power Forward of all time: the 2 time MVP is a ridiculous two way presence able to take down Hayes at both ends (he also has a 2 inch and 15 pound size advantage).

If Snooch starts with Rick Barry at SG it could pose a size mismatch, but if any guard can handle it, Sidney Moncrief can: the 2 time DPOY winner was as intense on the court as they come, and his smothering defence and relentless style of play earned him the praise of Michael Jordan. If he's having trouble, however, I can bring in DeBusschere, who's bigger, just as intense, and also a great defender (6 time All-Defensive First Team).

Isiah Thomas is going to running the offence, and he's one of the best ever in that regard: he averaged 14 assists a game at his peak, and his vision and creating ability was matched by his ridiculous driving and finishing ability.

And I never have to worry about losing creativity in the offence, as when Thomas needs a break Tim Hardaway can run the show just as well: he and Thomas are 2 of only 7 players to ever to average 20 points and 10 assists in a season. Whenever Jason Kidd needs a rest Snooch's offence won't be as effective, as he lacks another elite creator.

Wilkins' amazing (and league leading) scoring ability combined with his out-of-this-world atheletiscm makes him a defensive nightmare, and with Thomas and Hardaway feeding him and throwing him lobs Kirilenko, Mullins and Barry are going to be on the receiving end of some posters.

Cowens won the MVP award due to his all-around game and sheer intensity: he's one of 4 players to ever lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in a season, if I want to go big I could slide him into Small Forward: his relentlessness for going after every loose ball, rebound and player around him makes him a nightmare to play against.

In short, Snooch's lineup won't be able to beat the combination of playmaking from Thomas and Hardaway, athleticism and scoring from Dominique, 2 way dominance from Duncan and Gilmore, and smothering defence and relentless intensity from Moncrief, DeBusschere and Cowens.



In Game Adjustments

Snooch's Adjustments

After seeing the starting lineups posted by 007 I will make a change to mine, In for Hayes at the Center spot will go Pau Gasol, who will be dragging Gilmore outside of the paint (where he was absolutely useless in his playing days) and either shooting from the deep midrange or just beating him off the dribble and passing or scoring from there, leaving the very favorable(for me) Hayes vs Cowens match up intact.

Pau is also a very solid, high intelligence help defender who will, along with Russell, be able to step out when the the "not able to shoot at all" wings of 007 (Sidney career 22% from 3, Thomas career 29% and Wilkins career 26%) inevitably try to get closer to the rim.

Also I will bring Mullin in to start at sg and move Barry over to sf forcing wilkins to try and guard Barry(career 108 defensive rating, career -1.1 drpm rating) and little sidney to try and defend the much larger Mullin from all over the court.

Kidd defensive rating of 97 in his prime and a career rating of 102) will be able to handle Thomas as his career has been spent not only defending guards equally as quick as Thomas but also ones with more size(Nash, Williams, Paul, Parker, Iverson, Rondo etc) Kidd will slow down Thomas from his offense and totally get inside the hotheaded Thomas with relentless post ups and bullying on the offensive side of the ball


007's Adjustments

If Pau Gasol moves in and Russell slides to PF I'd bring in Cowens to guard Gasol: his mobility and intensity will be a better fit against the outside the paint Gasol. Duncan should be able to more than hold his own against Russell.

Plus, Russell on Duncan works in my favor, as Duncan can drag him away from the paint, forcing him to defend in an area he's not used to, and leaving the lane open for driving, many of my players' greatest offensive strength.

If "Little Sidney" is having troubles with Mullins, or Wilkins is having trouble with Barry, I can bring in DeBusschere, who has what both Moncrief (size) and Wilkins (defense) might lack in their match ups.

My point about Snooch not having a secondary creator still stands: either Kidd will play all game, leaving him gassed in crunch time, or the offense will stagnate without him (while I will always have at least one of Thomas and Hardaway running the show).

So RR faithful, who wins this game?

[Joey]

I love this match-up. Will have to think long and hard on this one.

Honestly, every single match in this game would be a great one.

[BobLoblaw]

Tbh, both starting lineups look weird to me. Neither can really shoot, which is a big deal in today's game. Team Snooch is better at this, it has Rick Barry starting, but still, just one guy in the starting lineup who's a legit shooter, not enough.

Also, for Team Snooch, Hayes is a major blackhole and will hurt the offense.

Plus I don't like Rick Barry at SG. Sometimes you go big, and it makes sense because a big guy like LeBron or Paul George or whoever is able to guard smaller guys. But if you put a Rick Barry or a Larry Bird or a Carmelo Anthony at SG, it just makes the team slow and clumsy defensively. Rick Barry played defense with effort, but he's not quick enough to guard someone like Moncrief.

I also don't care for Russell at 4, but from gameplan it's clear that Snooch expected to see Cowens at center and wanted Hayes to guard Cowens. Obviously if he knew that Gilmore would be at 5, he probably would do something differently.

What I do like: Kidd, Rick Barry, Bill Russell, that's a very smart and talented core that plays with effort on both ends. But I'd definitely start Chris Mullins and Gasol next to them, to add shooting at 2 and 4, and to give an unselfish scoring big man next to Bill Russell. Russell would set screens and roll to the rim, get offensive rebounds, use his athleticism on cuts and in transition, and move the ball, and Gasol would be the go to post scorer and also move the ball. It would also move Rick Barry to his real position. I'd love Kidd, Mullins, Barry, Gasol, Russell lineup; Kidd, Barry, Kirilenko, Russell, Hayes, meh, I think that's bad offense and only slightly better defense.

Team 007 has twin towers, but IMO twin towers require multiple great shooters around them, and preferably twin towers themselves should have some shooting range and good passing ability. But in this case, there aren't shooters around twin towers, and one of twin towers (Gilmore) can't shoot or pass. So this twin tower team doesn't fit well, IMO.

I like all 007 players individually, but I think they'll get into each other's way here.

IMO, 007 has better mismatches here, I think Kidd can't guard Isiah Thomas, he struggled with quick little guards, and this one is as quick and talented as they come. Barry can't guard Moncrief.

I haven't decided who I'll pick yet.

[Miekenstien]

this one is tight

[Snooch]

In Game Adjustment:

After seeing the starting lineups posted by 007 I will make a change to mine, In for Hayes at the Center spot will go Pau Gasol, who will be dragging Gilmore outside of the paint (where he was absolutely useless in his playing days) and either shooting from the deep midrange or just beating him off the dribble and passing or scoring from there, leaving the very favorable(for me) Hayes vs Cowens match up intact.

Pau is also a very solid, high intelligence help defender who will, along with Russell, be able to step out when the the "not able to shoot at all" wings of 007 (Sidney career 22% from 3, Thomas career 29% and Wilkins career 26%) inevitably try to get closer to the rim.

Also I will bring Mullin in to start at sg and move Barry over to sf forcing wilkins to try and guard Barry(career 108 defensive rating, career -1.1 drpm rating) and little sidney to try and defend the much larger Mullin from all over the court.

Kidd defensive rating of 97 in his prime and a career rating of 102) will be able to handle Thomas as his career has been spent not only defending guards equally as quick as Thomas but also ones with more size(Nash, Williams, Paul, Parker, Iverson, Rondo etc) Kidd will slow down Thomas from his offense and totally get inside the hotheaded Thomas with relentless post ups and bullying on the offensive side of the ball

[007]

In game adjustments:

If Pau Gasol moves in and Russell slides to PF I'd bring in Cowens to guard Gasol: his mobility and intensity will be a better fit against the outside the paint Gasol. Duncan should be able to more than hold his own against Russell.

Plus, Russell on Duncan works in my favor, as Duncan can drag him away from the paint, forcing him to defend in an area he's not used to, and leaving the lane open for driving, many of my players' greatest offensive strength.

If "Little Sidney" is having troubles with Mullins, or Wilkins is having trouble with Barry, I can bring in DeBusschere, who has what both Moncrief (size) and Wilkins (defense) might lack in their match ups.

My point about Snooch not having a secondary creator still stands: either Kidd will play all game, leaving him gassed in crunch time, or the offense will stagnate without him (while I will always have at least one of Thomas and Hardaway running the show).

[Apollo]

Another tough match up decision.

[Miekenstien]

this one has been the hardest for me, no one here is just absolutely dominant. i want to go with duncan but he has been stopped and i think russell will literally do whatever is needed to win, even if someone breaks his leg in the first quarter. so i am voting russell here.

i think both gameplans were excellent and this game could come down to last possession more than any other, where jkidd being gassed would come into play

[planetmars]

Both guys have really good teams.. but I think 007's team is slightly better. I don't think Russell's game translates that well to this era. He is a really small guy and going against guys like Tim Duncan will just totally negate what he can do offensively.

[BobLoblaw]

Both guys have really good teams.. but I think 007's team is slightly better. I don't think Russell's game translates that well to this era. He is a really small guy and going against guys like Tim Duncan will just totally negate what he can do offensively.

He's smaller than Duncan, but I wouldn't say he's extremely small, he had similar size, body type, athleticism to Anthony Davis.

Players in that era were measured in socks, plus many players prefered to downplay their height. Bill Russell himself is on record asking to be listed at 6'9, despite being closer to 6'10 in socks (so a legit 6'11 in modern sneakers).

Back then he thought 6'10 would make people think more negatively of him.

[Apollo]

Just waiting for the adjustments now.

Edit: I see them and they're now in the OP as well.

[Cody73]

Great match-up here.



DeBuschere would excel here in our timeline, as he was a long-range shooter. So depending on how much playing time 007 were to give him and use him almost like a Kyle Korver at SF with way better D, 007 wins this game.

[Mack North]

Very tough matchup, could easily go either way.

I'm gonna go with the Snooch, but I hate going against the two Tim's!

[DanH]

I was going to vote Snooch but I really didn't like putting Gasol out there to start. 007 takes it on the strength of adjustments.

[BobLoblaw]

I end up picking Snooch.

I really like all 007 gameplanning and rebuttals, and I like his individual players. Very dynamic backcourt, and Nique / Duncan are beasts. But ultimately this starting lineup still is a midrange / post team, and I like Snooch's lineup with Mullins and Gasol more.