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Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

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  • Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

    The legacy league was created to pit teams drafted by fellow RR members against each other and allow the general RR populous to vote on who would win this winner take all, single elimination game if all players were at their peak performance.

    Each team drafted an 8 man roster. Each team provided a gameplan justification as to why they believe they should get your vote. Each team is allowed 1 post for "in game adjustments." The role of RR community is simple, vote for who you believe should win. Post justification if you want (encouraged) and weigh the pros and cons for all to see, but ultimately, your vote decides who will win this tournament of legends.

    Match #12 - Champions Bracket

    e_wheazy roster:

    PG: John Stockton - All time assists and steals leader, shot 45% from 3, career 207.7 win shares

    SG: Reggie Miller - retired with most 3PM all time, career 39.5% from 3, all time NBA leader in 4 point plays, scored 8 points in 8.9 seconds, extremely clutch, could get hot and take over a game in seconds (literally)

    SF: Kawhi Leonard - reigning DPOY, NBA champion, NBA finals MVP for his amazing lockdown defense on the game's best player.

    PF: Karl Malone - 2 time MVP (once in Jordan Era) 11 time All-NBA 1st team, career 234.6 win shares, 96 Drtg

    C: Dwight Howard - 8 time all star, 5 time All NBA first team, 3 time consecutive DPOY, 5 time NBA rebounds leader and 2 time consecutive blocks reader,

    Bn: Derrick Rose - NBA MVP while Lebron was in the league, youngest MVP in league history
    Bn: James Worthy - NBA Finals MVP, 3x NBA champ, clutchest of clutch performers, great defender, 37.5% from 3
    Bn: Bob Lanier - 8 time NBA all star, 63% FG playoff shooting, 88 (yeah, you read that right) DRTG season, 3 blks, 15 rebounds/pg seasons, retired with career 20PPG and 10RPG averages


    Axel's Lineup

    PG - Oscar Robertson - 9x All-NBA 1st team, only player to avg a triple double in a season in history with 30.8 PPG, 12.4 APG, 11.5 RPG

    SG - Glen Rice - 3x All-Star, career 40% from 3 with career high of 47% (5th highest in history, min 300 3PA)

    SF - Peja Stojakovic - 3x All-Star, career 40% from 3 with career high of 44%

    PF - Amar'e Stoudemire - All-NBA 1st team avg 25 PPG, 9.1 RPG on 59% FG%

    C - Arvydas Sabonis - Multiple Euro MVPs, NBA All-Rookie, 37.5% from 3 as rookie

    Bench
    G/F George 'Ice Man' Gervin - 4x scoring champ, 5x All-NBA first team
    G/F Manu Ginobili - 2005 playoff stat avgs of 20.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.2 SPG 50.7% FG%, 43.8% 3P%
    F/C Kevin McHale - 3x All-Defensive 1st team, career 17.9 PPG 7.3 RPG avgs


    Axel's Gameplan

    Sliding Amar'e into the starting lineup allows us to match the physical nature of Karl Malone, provides a line up well set to turn up the tempo against the half court traditional Malone and allows the 3x All-Defensive McHale is come off the bench with a different defensive look (length vs strength) to keep Malone off balance in the post.

    Using Oscar's size advantage (4" and 25lbs) over Stockton allows Oscar good passing lanes and also the option to take Stockton into the mid or low post to initiate the offence.

    Sabonis continues to create matchup problems, as Howard would be drawn away from his rim protection duties and the 6'9 Malone would be giving up about half a foot in height. Sabonis's passing skill could become even more important if Kawhi Leonard slids over to cover Oscar (leaving the 6'1 Stockton on either 6'7 Rice or 6'9 Peja), as Sabonis can initiate the offence from the high/mid post (defended by either Howard or Malone).

    Bringing Manu off the bench as another playmaker with the size to contest Rose, allows us to keep a high tempo pace for a full 4 quarters without sacrificing shooting, defence or playmaking and forces e_wheazy to once again find a way for his PG to defend a taller player (without the rim protection of Howard if he's on Sabonis).

    Defensively, Stockton is the only real playmaker we need to contain, so using Oscar/Manu's size to body up on the dribble, length to cut off passing angles and forcing Stockton to either shoot from outside (not a strength) or give the ball up will be important to disrupting e_wheazy's offence. Once the ball is out of Stockton's hands, e_wheazy has no players capable of initiating the offence or creating shots for themselves outside of Rose, who will also struggle with the length of Manu/Oscar on his drives and who looks to score more than create. This will greatly limit the effectiveness of the rest of his offensive players, especially guys like Miller, Leonard, Howard, Worthy and Malone - essentially limiting his offence to Rose ISO (vs taller defenders) and transition (limited opportunities with very efficient scorers - all high TS% and FG%, and strong rebounders).

    With a disruptive defence and the rebounding advantage, pushing into transition will allow Oscar/Manu to drive to the rim or find lethal shooters (Rice/Peja) on the break, plus hit trailing cutters (Amar'e/McHale/Gervin) or even hit a trailing Sabonis for an open three. Half court sets will be inside/out developed with either drive and kick or post ups drawing the defence one way, before passing to excellent scorers at all positions.


    Wheazy's Gameplan

    DEFENCE: (6)

    The Big O may have dominated in his time, but that was when the game was fast paced and defences allowed him to set his tempo and come off screens for jumpers; our defense is built exactly to slow the pace of the game and reduce Oscar's effectiveness as we have the personnel to ice every pick and roll, getting our defenders over the screens (meaning no open shots off screens) and funnelling the ball handler towards the sideline, shortening the space he has to work with.

    We're gonna put Kawhi on Oscar, because Kawhi has the strength, length, speed, athleticism, quick hands, footwork, tenacity and IQ to not only keep up with him, but also to give him a lot of trouble in setting his tempo and controlling the game - this means Stockton on Rice and Reggie absolutely destroying Peja psychologically.

    Our wings, who are going to stick to their guys like glue, are strong and quick enough to keep up with their perimeter guys, contest their shots and get lots of steals by guarding the passing lanes.

    Sabonis may have been skilled in the post but he was very slow and deliberate with his movements by the time he got to the NBA (which is where he was 292lbs); our big men are faster, more agile and have better stamina, which means they'll have no trouble keeping up with him at the three point line, and recovering if he uses the shot fake to drive (not to mention he'll have Kawhi's giant hands and all time steals leader Stockton swiping at the ball off his VERY high dribble).


    We're also capable of doing a great job of denying their players the ball in the post: Kawhi's size advantage over Robertson means it'll be hard for him to get a clean entry pass, and if they manage to get the ball to someone else, we'll have Kawhi or Stockton quickly flash to close the passing lane, and if he even manages to get the ball in the post, he's either working on a 2x block leader, 5x rebound leader, 3x consecutive defensive player of the year, or a 11x All NBA first team and 2x MVP and getting his skyscraper dribble stolen by Stockton, Kawhi or Worthy, which leads to an open Reggie three on the other end.

    By playing 2 players who are slow and only serve to shoot threes, it allows us to put Stockton and Reggie on them to get steals: they know that these guys are spotting up on the perimeter to wait for passes and my guys are all fast/agile (great for chasing guys around screens), have high BBIQ/good instincts (great for defensive positioning and reading the passing lanes) as well as quick hands and speed to lead the fast breaks when they inevitably get steals by closely guarding slow-footed Rice and slower-footed Stojakovic.

    OFFENSE: 4

    Again we're going to look to run as much as possible, exploiting not only our players' strengths (steals, rebounds, speed, finishing, passing, high BBIQ) but also the fact that everyone except Robertson and McHale (Ginobli, Gervin off the bench) are below average in speed, meaning that, depending who's on the floor, we can have a 4-on-2/3-on-1 fast break.

    That will lead us straight into our motion offense, which will not only work to slow down the game and milk possessions, it will also allow us to find the best shot, exploit their lack of speed and tire out the defense (esp. Sabonis) and again, takes advantage of our speed, high BBIQ and passing aside from exploiting their weaknesses: slow defenders at 3/5 positions, and in Sabonis' case, low stamina.

    We're also going to use a lot of horns, which will bring their big men out to the perimeter and open up cutting lanes for our guys to use their speed advantage against their defenders, and also exploits Sabonis either off the dribble with Rose/Stockton/Reggie blowing by him for easy open looks, or to the roll man, who will already be at the rim by the time Sabonis, who aside from being slow footed (though he had good footwork) was never a good post defender, turns around.

    You'll also see us operate out of the triangle quite a bit, giving us a number of options on the court (Dwight, Kawhi, Reggie triangle with Stockton/Malone pinch post two man game, or Malone in the triangle and Howard/Rose pick and roll on the weak side), not to mention that all three offenses take advantage of their complete lack of defensive wings.


    In Game Adjustments -

    Axel's In game adjustments

    By anticipating Leonard covering Oscar, our team half court offence flows seamlessly through the 7'4 Sabonis in the high post by drawing the only rim protector away from the hoop and forcing help defenders to leave lethal scorers open for a Sabonis bullet pass.

    Sabonis, who has no stamina issues with his prime playing weight of between 270-280 lbs (based on Olympics) has size, skill and athleticism that no one can match, as evidenced by his NBA.com video highlights

    http://youtu.be/18tnToDLHV4

    Our offence will play at a high tempo pushing the ball early to force the defence to scramble to find their 3 man switched assignments (Leonard to scramble away from his cover (6'10 Stojakovic) to locate Oscar, while Miller scrambles from Rice (6'7) to Stojakovic and Stockton scrambles from Oscar (6'5) to Rice), which will inevitably break down leading to easy baskets in transition and open looks from the perimeter.

    Defensively, our size advantage will negate Stockton's passing lanes, Malone's post position and Howard's ability to use power moves (giving up between 30-40lbs according to BBRef), forcing unnatural playmakers like Miller, Leonard, and Worthy to either assume that role or play ISO heavy offence. With neither Howard or Malone possessing much shooting range, the 7'4 Sabonis will be free to protect the rim with Amar'e and McHale as weak side rebounders for quick outlet to Oscar/Manu.

    So RR faithful, who wins this game?
    24
    Axel
    20.83%
    5
    e_wheazy
    79.17%
    19

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Axel; Thu Aug 20, 2015, 08:37 PM.

  • #2
    Hope I did this right! Good luck guys!

    Comment


    • #3
      looking like a fun matchup

      Comment


      • #4
        is this game on tv tonight?

        Comment


        • #5
          Tough match up. They both look pretty even. Could go either way.
          #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

          Comment


          • #6
            Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

            Axel's In game adjustments

            By anticipating Leonard covering Oscar, our team half court offence flows seamlessly through the 7'4 Sabonis in the high post by drawing the only rim protector away from the hoop and forcing help defenders to leave lethal scorers open for a Sabonis bullet pass.

            Sabonis, who has no stamina issues with his prime playing weight of between 270-280 lbs (based on Olympics) has size, skill and athleticism that no one can match, as evidenced by his NBA.com video highlights

            http://youtu.be/18tnToDLHV4

            Our offence will play at a high tempo pushing the ball early to force the defence to scramble to find their 3 man switched assignments (Leonard to scramble away from his cover (6'10 Stojakovic) to locate Oscar, while Miller scrambles from Rice (6'7) to Stojakovic and Stockton scrambles from Oscar (6'5) to Rice), which will inevitably break down leading to easy baskets in transition and open looks from the perimeter.

            Defensively, our size advantage will negate Stockton's passing lanes, Malone's post position and Howard's ability to use power moves (giving up between 30-40lbs according to BBRef), forcing unnatural playmakers like Miller, Leonard, and Worthy to either assume that role or play ISO heavy offence. With neither Howard or Malone possessing much shooting range, the 7'4 Sabonis will be free to protect the rim with Amar'e and McHale as weak side rebounders for quick outlet to Oscar/Manu.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is a great match up. I'll probably vote on Saturday and let it sit for a bit in the meantime. So many mismatches going both ways.

              Comment


              • #8
                The second round is so much tougher than the first.. which was also very hard. Going to need time for this one.. leaning towards Axel because I really like his adjustment.. need to see the rebuttal though.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wheazy has a nearly perfectly constructed team.

                  Pass-first PG, who's the all-time leader in assists and steals.

                  One of the best and most clutch 3pt shooters of all time.

                  A well-rounded lock-down perimeter defender, who can also knock down a 3pt shot.

                  One of the best, prototypical traditional PFs of all time, who can pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop, playing alongside the PG with whom he has unparalleled chemistry.

                  One of the best, prototypical rim protectors of all time.


                  I love the way this team is built, with an ability to pound it inside, light it up from outside, or run a 2-man game from the high corner post. Great versatility with fantastic point-of-attack defense, with one of the best defensive anchors waiting behind the quality first line of defense.

                  Nothing against Axel's team, but Wheazy's team is exactly how I would attempt to build a team.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    Wheazy has a nearly perfectly constructed team.

                    Pass-first PG, who's the all-time leader in assists and steals.

                    One of the best and most clutch 3pt shooters of all time.

                    A well-rounded lock-down perimeter defender, who can also knock down a 3pt shot.

                    One of the best, prototypical traditional PFs of all time, who can pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop, playing alongside the PG with whom he has unparalleled chemistry.

                    One of the best, prototypical rim protectors of all time.


                    I love the way this team is built, with an ability to pound it inside, light it up from outside, or run a 2-man game from the high corner post. Great versatility with fantastic point-of-attack defense, with one of the best defensive anchors waiting behind the quality first line of defense.

                    Nothing against Axel's team, but Wheazy's team is exactly how I would attempt to build a team.
                    Yea, I agree, you sold me. I think Wheazy has the better talent at each position. Each of his starters are extremely well rounded and versatile.

                    Axel does have a good strategy with the design of his roster but I don't think he can pull it off on this one because of the level of talent he's facing in this round. Everyone on Wheazy's starting line up is elite to me.
                    Last edited by BS10; Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:37 AM.
                    #JaysWinningLikeItz93'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Legacy league - Match #12 - VOTE to see who advances to Semi-Finals!!! (Axel ...

                      Axel wrote: View Post

                      By anticipating Leonard covering Oscar, our team half court offence flows seamlessly through the 7'4 Sabonis in the high post by drawing the only rim protector away from the hoop and forcing help defenders to leave lethal scorers open for a Sabonis bullet pass.
                      Aside from the fact Dwight isn't the only rim protector, and that you're exaggerating heights (you yourself have said different heights for your own players...Peja isn't 6'10, Sabonis wasn't 7'4...), your wing scorers aren't lethal enough to cause my guys problems other than 3 point shooting - which is exactly where my defenders will be waiting to grab steals.

                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      [Sabonis, who has no stamina issues with his prime playing weight of between 270-280 lbs (based on Olympics) has size, skill and athleticism that no one can match, as evidenced by his NBA.com...
                      Highlight videos show highlights, he wasn't a transcendent player by any means, and even with no stamina issues, he was a heavy, tall guy, meaning he's a slow mover, so you can't say that no one would match - not to mention, if he's 270-280, Dwight Howard, who's listed as 275 by NBA.com (the very site you referenced) doesn't give up any significant weight when guarding him.

                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      Our offence will play at a high tempo pushing the ball early to force the defence to scramble to find their 3 man switched assignments (Leonard to scramble away from his cover (Stojakovic) to locate Oscar, while Miller scrambles from Rice (6'7) to Stojakovic and Stockton scrambles from Oscar (6'5) to Rice), which will inevitably break down leading to easy baskets in transition and open looks from the perimeter.
                      My guys don't have to scramble to find their covers - they're already covering them, with Reggie and Stockton glued to those slow dudes on the perimeter interchangeably (we don't have to block their shots, just contest, which already reduces efficiency) - this is not to mention that my guys are way faster than his, meaning even if we do scramble, we have quick and smart enough defenders to recover in time.

                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      Defensively, our size advantage will negate Stockton's passing lanes, Malone's post position and Howard's ability to use power moves (giving up between 30-40lbs according to BBRef), forcing unnatural playmakers like Miller, Leonard, and Worthy to either assume that role or play ISO heavy offence. With neither Howard or Malone possessing much shooting range, the 7'4 Sabonis will be free to protect the rim with Amar'e and McHale as weak side rebounders for quick outlet to Oscar/Manu.
                      Vastly underrating our playmakers, and there's no one on your team that can root the 260 pound Malone out of the low block(outside of Sabonis who's already guarding someone else), but exaggeration is a valid strategy when trying to win at all costs - you're also completely discounting the fact that, unlike a Dwane Casey ran team, we actually have an offense: you don't need playmakers to execute a triangle or motion offense, you need smart, unselfish, speedy and quick thinking players to execute and move the ball to find the best shots - not a hard task against a slow and weak defensive team; we also have the option of going "big" with Malone abusing Peja physically (and since Peja is already slow, he's not giving up any speed on that matchup), Lanier taking care of whoever is at PF interchangeably with Dwight, giving us 3 rim protectors and negating any "size advantage".


                      Guys don't fall into the trap of looking at a gold name/high post counts and taking words as fact, although Axel is a very smart and knowledgeable guy, his team is just plain and simply worse than mine:

                      - they have slow wings who are sieves on defense and on offense only serve to shoot threes (which they won't make at their normal clip since they're facing stellar defenders who are glued to them);

                      - they have unathletic big men who (aside from McHale, who was light for a post guy) will be abused by my big men's superior athleticism, speed and defense;

                      -their best playmaker is negated by Kawhi, and their main big man plays on the perimeter, with his high dribble-drives to the rim being stolen by the all time steals leader in NBA history
                      Last edited by e_wheazhy_; Thu Aug 20, 2015, 11:59 PM.
                      A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Axel has this for a couple of reasons.

                        First, Oscar. I like Stockton and he was a very solid defender, but he will never be able to stop Oscar, and Kawhi is a great defender, but I do not see how he can keep up with Oscar for an entire game.

                        Then there is Sabonis who howard would never, ever be able to guard, remember Bargnani going off multiple times against howard? How would one of the most skilled bigmen in all of history far? Incredibly well.

                        And Malone, While another great defender, I do not think he could match the Speed that a prime Amare carried on his rolls to the rim, and also Amares jumping ability. Malone was built for strength and banging, he was never great against fast athletic PFs as evidenced by guys like Kemp.

                        And Mchale and the iceman and Manu off the bench?

                        And LAstly, I think Ewhezy has really been stretching the 10 sentence, 5 sentence rule.....

                        So My Vote goes to Axel, and I question as to why is is trailing so far, dont vote for name recognitions and vote for team construction people.....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The length of some of these "sentences"! ha

                          This one is almost eeny-meeny-miny-mo... tough choice between two excellent squads.
                          The Double Champ is here!
                          Dynasty King: RRNBADLS7
                          Raptors: Larry O'Brien

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                          • #14
                            I just imagined Stockton running endless pick n rolls with Malone and Howard, and using Reggie Miller as the release valve if the paint gets crowded
                            For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This one's a tough call, but Axel beat me last round, so I'm voting Wheazhy.

                              But seriously: offensively, these squads have similar overall firepower, with the edge going slightly towards Axel. Defensively though, Wheazhy has a much more pronounced advantage, especially with Amare in the starting lineup. That tips it for me.
                              "Stop eating your sushi."
                              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                              - Jack Armstrong

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